You Didn’t Get Any Full-Time Investment Banking Offers. Now What Do You Do?
Or not.
If full-time recruiting season is over and you don’t have any offers, you should be panicking at least a little.
While summer interns who don’t get return offers have a few months to fix the situation, your options are more limited.
But that doesn’t mean you have no chance of getting full-time offers – so here’s what to do.
Worst-Case Scenario
You might think the worst case scenario is not getting a full-time job, but that’s not true – there are two scenarios that are worse:
- Putting yourself in a position where it’s nearly impossible to break into finance in the future.
- Moving into a job that’s difficult to leverage for business school or eventually breaking into finance.
#1 happens most often when you get the brilliant idea to go to business school straight out of undergrad… oops.
#2 is not the end of the world, but you still want to avoid it unless you absolutely, desperately need the income in the short-term.
If those are the 2 worst-case scenarios, then the best-case scenario is simple: whatever maximizes your chances of breaking in without limiting your options or wasting time on things that won’t help you in the long-term.
What Went Wrong?
The next question you need to ask: what went wrong?
There are only 2 reasons why you didn’t win any full-time offers:
1) You didn’t get any interviews / enough interviews.
Your problem was your resume, your networking efforts, or both.
If you’ve been submitting applications online, please stop immediately. It doesn’t work, and you’ll never get a critical mass of interviews like that.
You need to get on the phone ASAP and start talking to real people and then meeting them in-person – if you’re coming from a non-target school and you haven’t done that, you stand a 0.0000000000001% chance of breaking into investment banking.
If you’re at a better-known school, networking is still essential but your resume / lack of solid work experience is more likely the culprit.
Diagnosis: Make sure you’re using this investment banking resume template.
Then, take a look at your resume and your experiences – if you haven’t had impressive-looking internships then you need to get them if you want any chance of getting interviews.
Finally, take an honest look at your networking efforts – have you contacted at least 100 alumni? Cold-called 100 local boutiques? Talked to at least 20 people on the phone and hopefully met most of them in-person?
If not, then you need to put your nose to the grindstone and keep at it until you ninja your way into interviews.
2) You got a lot of interviews but didn’t do well or didn’t connect with the interviewers.
Winning offers from interviews is very, very random.
Yes, knowing the key fit and technical questions is essential, but a lot of people know those – especially in bulge bracket interviews.
You need a “hook” to actually win offers, and unless you’ve had dozens of interviews the “randomness” factor is too high for you to say anything concrete.
Diagnosis: If you didn’t have dozens of interviews, you need to get them (see above). If you did, and you still didn’t get any offers then you need to figure out what went wrong.
The best way to do this: go through a few mock interviews with friends in the industry.
90% of interview problems can be reduced to:
- Your “story”
- You don’t have a good answer for “why investment banking“
- Your enthusiasm is low and you aren’t as polished as other interviewees
The good news is that “fixing” your interview skills takes less time than networking with hundreds of industry contacts and getting more impressive work experience.
But the bad news is that it’s very difficult to “teach” someone how to be more likable, which is what tips the scale in interviews.
How Much Time and Money Do You Have?
Next: how much time and money do you have to fix whatever mistakes you made?
If you didn’t win full-time offers, you need to fix your resume, interview skills, or networking skills, or maybe all of those… but how you do that depends on the resources at your disposal.
First, let’s go through a couple examples of what you shouldn’t do when you don’t have any full-time offers lined up, and then a couple examples of strategies that make more sense.
What NOT To Do
I thought about adding the CFA here just for fun, but I’ll resist the urge to do that – just this once.
1) Business School
It’s a big mistake to go to business school with minimal full-time work experience.
How much do you need?
At least 3-5 years. We basically threw out resumes of Associate candidates who had less experience.
Yes, there are plenty of good reasons to go to business school if you want to use it for something else, but going immediately after undergraduate is a recipe for disaster if you want to get into banking from your program.
And be careful that your work experience is actually “full-time” – a bunch of side projects or travel combined with teaching English and intermittent work won’t stack up to the guy who managed a $1 billion product line for 4 years.
The other big problem with going to business school right after undergrad is that if you don’t get into finance when you’re there, your future chances also drop dramatically.
2) Back Office
For the last time, back office to front office moves – at least for investment banking – are rare and very difficult to pull off.
Yes, it may work slightly better in other fields and some people pull it off successfully, but you need to think about the probability.
What will give you a higher probability of eventually moving to a large bank’s investment banking division – starting in the back office, or going to a boutique first and then making a lateral move?
Please, stop the insanity and go for front office roles at smaller firms rather than “taking what you can get” and making the back office your backup.
3) Normal Job
By “normal” I mean not related to finance at all – marketing, engineering, medicine, etc. Corporate development, wealth management, consulting, and the like don’t qualify.
I would only “settle” for this if you’ve been out of school for months, have networked extensively, are doing all the right things, but still have no offers and you really need income in the short-term.
4) Nothing At All
I’m not referring to whether or not you have something lined up by the time you graduate – I’m talking about what you DO between now and when you graduate.
I had a reader last year who only started her full-time job search 2 months before graduation. Whoops.
No matter what you’re “busy” with, figuring out what you’re doing afterward comes before everything else – so move grades, classes, and activities lower on your priority list.
Possible Plan B’s
Here are 5 viable options. They’re not mutually exclusive, and there’s no “best” option – everything depends on your own situation.
1) Delaying Graduation
“Help! I have no offers. Should I delay my graduation and go for summer internships again this year, then do full-time recruiting before I graduate in December next year?”
It’s most helpful if:
- You got some interviews but had trouble convincing them you could do the work since you didn’t have substantial internships.
- You go to a well-known school that banks recruit at – otherwise it’s a huge gamble to bet on summer internships.
- Your problem was your resume or interview skills, as opposed to your networking efforts.
The main problem: if you’ve had impressive internships, done a lot of interviewing, but simply didn’t make it through any final rounds, then it will come across as an obvious Plan B to anyone interviewing you – and they’ll ask the questions you don’t want to answer.
2) Master’s Program
Another common plan, and also not a bad move. It’s good if:
- You’re using it to move to a better-known school where banks recruit.
- You didn’t do enough networking and need more time and better access to recruiters.
- You could also use some more impressive-looking internships.
This is not the best plan if the main issue was your interview skills – it’s a big commitment just to have another shot at recruiting.
The focus of your program is almost irrelevant beyond being related to finance/business/economics in some way – if you’re trying to re-brand yourself, don’t go for a Master’s Degree in English Literature.
3) Keep At It
This one gets overlooked, probably because it’s not as “exciting” as the other options.
If you keep cold-calling and networking, you’ll eventually get something – the only way to fail is if you give up first. Even if you graduate without a firm plan in place, that’s still better than taking the wrong job.
You should think about this option if:
- You don’t have the resources to delay graduation or to stay in school even longer.
- You have a decent amount of work experience but you lack a good network and need time to build it.
- You don’t mind going for smaller banks at first and then making a lateral move.
If you’re at a non-target school and cannot move elsewhere or stay in school longer, this is your best option: set a target of making 10 calls per day, sending 10 emails per day, and so on, and never take “no” for an answer.
4) Mini-Retirement
I’m referring to my suggestions on what to do with time off before you start working full-time: moving to another country for a few months and doing something interesting.
This one can work but it’s more risky than the others since it puts you out of the game for quite awhile – if you do this for an entire year after graduation, for example, it’s tough to jump back into recruiting.
It’s more viable if you combine this with the other options above – so maybe you apply to grad school, but take 1-2 months in between to go on an adventure.
That way you get a big boost to your networking and interview skills because you appear more interesting, plus you might get some solid leads if you go to a country with a major financial center.
5) Something Leverageable
If all else fails, none of these options is viable, and you can’t afford to spend more time recruiting, then you might have to take what you can get.
But still think about something that can be spun into sounding relevant to finance – corporate finance at a large company, helping governments manage all the financial services companies they now own, or even an economics/business-related fellowship.
Your Plan of Attack
If full-time recruiting season is over and you don’t have any offers, your plan of attack is simple: figure out what went wrong, decide what you’ll do after graduation to give yourself another shot at recruiting, and then spend your time between now and then fixing the mistakes you made.
Now, get to it.
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Brian,
To hell with IB, how about you set up another site detailing how to “break into” entrepreneurship ?
I’m getting quite jealous as to how you can travel the world and make a living doing it.
LOL – I’ve thought about it, but most people in school are not interested in doing this.
Just like anything else, it has its ups and downs – it’s not all rosy.
But I may start something next year on this topic…
Similar to Anon’s question but actually kind of serious, is there a website similar to yours about getting into MBA programs? I know that there are other sites out there, but I’m not sure if you know of any sites which have the quality of yours. I’m searching right now, and I still haven’t found any.
Hmm, not too familiar with MBA sites – there’s a lot of information out there but I think a lot of it is “fluffy.” Not sure that there’s anything that has an “edge” to it if that’s what you’re looking for.
Yes Brian, but you have to put in your time somewhere first to add value to many of your entrepreneurship ventures
It’s true that you need some kind of experience first to do it… but the amount you need is greatly overestimated by most.
If you do go into consulting doesnt that help you break into bussiness school than investment banking as a associate?
It does help you with b-school – whether or not it helps more or less than banking is debatable. Very close.
Hi Brian,
I briefly explain my situation.
I’ll earn my degree (MSc in engineering) in December; I completed a 6-month in a regional office of a BB investment bank, which was unable to make me an offer because of headcount’s problems.
I therefore sent more than 50 CVs and I networked with a lot of people, but, although I’ve been not rejected yet, no-one called me for an interview and I suspect I’m out of the competition.
I may have a great advantage…my dad was a “big cheese” investment banker in the 80′-90′s and therefore I may get interviews from almost each BB; the problem is I’m not on good terms with him and therefore I wouldn’t rest with him, but at the same time I would leverage his connections…
Any advice??
Thanks in advance.
Bruno
Hmm, if your relationship with your dad is not great then I would not rely on him and his connections – your best option is to keep at it and focus on local firms now. If you’ve already done that, go beyond banking and think about consulting, PWM, and related fields.
For summer internship offers, when does the general deadline to apply for internships end?
Thanks!
Most banks start interviews for summer internships in December, so deadline is usually before that.
Brian,
I have to do an internship in the spring even though I have a FT offer. As a liberal arts student would it be better to join a CPA firm to become more familiar with accounting or would I be better off to join a PE firm in order to position myself for PE recruiting. I would be happy to know. Thanks.
Definitely PE.
After information sessions, I typically follow up to the bankers through email. However, I usually never receive any response, even when I ask a question. Am I doing something wrong or are they just busy? Can you recommend a sample “template” for followup-related emails? Thanks
There are templates included in the Networking program – it’s hard to say what’s going wrong just from what you said.
After meeting someone at an information session, you should always ask to meet in-person or talk on the phone for a specific purpose, and do so sooner (within 2-3 days max) rather than later. If you just “ask a question” then they may not know that you want interviews with their firm.
How does somebody acquire an internship that banks are looking for during recruiting season? Are they usually set up through the school and you send your resume and interview, or does one have to cold call banks and ask for internships? I am going to a community college for 2 years and was wondering how I could compete with Ivy Leaguers for the more well known internships.
I’m not sure I understand your question, but if you’re going to a community college you need to transfer somewhere else ASAP to have a shot at internships at all. Depending on where you go, you might be able to use on-campus recruiting to get internships, or you might have to do some cold-calling, or both.
If you don’t get an analyst offer, what if you suggested to smaller firms that you’re networking with that you’d be willing to intern and then work full time after they decide if they like you. Is this ‘trial’ period effective? I’m sure it’s also risky because if they say no you’re out of a job a few months after you graduate.
That could be a good strategy – you might want to just propose it as an “internship” at first without framing it like a “trial period.” Even if you don’t end up with an offer, you can still leverage it to get interviews elsewhere so it’s not as risky as you might think.
haha it sounds like the finance ship has sailed for me. I took a crappy corporate job (which I can spin, but you can only do so much), and I managed to get into this early admission program to a top 5 MBA program that requires me to get 2 years of work experience.
But it sounds like my weak work experience + inexperienced MBA tag means I can’t get into traditional finance. Ironically I feel like my background is pretty well suited for entrepreneurship, and I have done some entrepreneurial projects in the past and enjoyed them.
I bought your financial modeling course, if I did another entrepreneurial project, how much do you think the course would backfill some of the skills I would have acquired in banking?
If you’re talking about Harvard 2+2 program that’s not necessarily true… assuming that you can get a solid 2 years of work experience. It all depends on how much you can spin it… bankers and consultants are often fine with only 2 years.
Whether or not you want to start something on your own is a big decision and it’s honestly completely different from finance.
And yes, the course will fill in the gaps – especially if you go through the Yahoo case study, that is 99% of what you actually do in banking.
Awesome thanks. Sounds like in that case you could really market it to two different groups: 1. people who want to get into finance and 2. people who just want the skills but don’t want the grind, or can’t get in =D
That’s definitely true, though I think there are very few in group #2 so haven’t done much there so far.
You mention moving from back office to front office being very difficult, but what about a move from Sales and Trading to IBD? Both would be considered front office, although clearly they serve different purposes at the bank and involve different skillsets / personality types. Does anyone ever do this? Is it easiest to move within the same bank? Do guys in IBD look down on sales and trading people trying to move over, or is it fairly doable?
It’s easier to go from S&T to IBD. You need a solid connection in IBD and a great story / rationale if you want to do it. There’s always some hostility between S&T and IBD, but they don’t look down on each other nearly as much as they look down on back/middle office
Hi Brian, quick question:
I’m a sophomore at an ivy (but it is quite possible I’ll graduate in three years)
I’m not sure if I want to do IBD or S&T. Is it possible to apply to both for SA? or would that look weird?
Also, should I mention somehow that I might graduate in three years? This complicates things because if I’m a sophomore SA I’m obviously not in the running for a full time offer, but I’d like to be
Thanks
Yes you could apply to both – and if you do want to be in the running for an FT offer I would mention the early graduation.
When one applys for a IB position, they apply to a specific group (like M&A), correct?
Incorrect. You apply just to an Investment Banking Summer Analyst, Analyst, or Associate role. Group placement happens either during the interview process or after you accept an offer.
Does one get to choose what group they want to be in?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Varies a lot by bank – sometimes you have no choice and other times you get to select preferences.
Is it after one accepts the offer do they they tell you or let you decide what group to go in? And obviously salary ranges quite a bit from group to group, right?
Thanks for all the helpful input!
Yes. And no, salary does not change that much at the junior level between different groups.
whenever I cold-call VPs, they just say talk to HR or go online. I tell them I will most likely not get any call back and have almost no chance if I apply through their website or HR.
And they say there is nothing much they can help if HR rejects my application.
Any suggestions for my case?
Tell them you understand that, but are interested in speaking to them directly because you know they call the shots with recruiting. Keep in mind that your chances of rejection with cold-calling are VERY high and you have to keep at it – most people will not be helpful / receptive, so it’s a grind until you can get a good answer.
Hi Brian,
would you say it’s easier/better to break into banking through PWM/Corporate development -> MBA or through the law school -> corporate law route if tuition is not a concern.
-Thanks
PWM/Corporate Development -> MBA is easier.
There’s a decent boutique in nyc I like that won’t be recruiting analysts until mid-spring. There’s also a small 6 person shop in nyc that I could probably get an offer at this month. If I accept the small shop offer and then get an offer at the much better boutique, what if I ended up reneging in the spring? Can anything bad come out of this? Examples?
Eh in that situation probably not since it’s a boutique. I would only worry if you renege at a larger bank.
What about taking an Audit position w/ the Big 4 post-MBA and then trying to leverage the accounting experience into investment banking?
It’s hard. See the recent article on this topic. You can do it, but it’s harder than moving in from, say, management consulting.
Hi Brian, I am a senior at a non-target rank 50-100th college, major Econ/Math. I want to work at IB after graduation but got no final interview or offer so far. I have good academic record 3.9+ GPA and lots of activities. The weakness is that I don’t have IB related intern experience. The internship I did was consulting and commercial real estate, and there are not well-known companies. I am also a international student, which means that I need sponsorship to work in US.
I only wish I had found your website earlier. I wasted a lot of time doing online application and worked little on networking and cold-calling. I do have a backup plan, which is getting a fifth year master degree of MSF (Master of Science of Finance) at my college. It’s quality is not very good. But I can have a chance to apply for summer internship at a IB company.
At this point of time, what’s your suggestion on my ongoing job search? Should I give up looking for full-time position and focus on summer intern, or begin networking and cold-calling people? I really don’t want to give up. I am willing to do whatever it takes to get my ideal job.
The Visa issue makes it harder for you – you may want to consider moving back to your own country and looking for finance jobs there. If I were you, I would look for full-time positions and start cold-calling aggressively to see what the response is… if it’s not good, then think about Master’s programs, preferably at a better school, and then leverage that to move in.
Are visa issues more of a problem or less of a problem for FT analyst positions?
More of a problem – easier to get permission to work for 2-3 months vs. 2-3 years.
I’m going to say something that might not be popular….
Maybe, if you didn’t get any investment banking offers, you didn’t get them for a reason:
-You wouldn’t fit well in the investment banking culture
-You think you’re interested in banking but you’re really not
-etc.
The interviewers can usually tell this stuff from when they’re talking to you since they are actually in the industry themselves. So maybe, just maybe, you should put your banking aspirations on hold, at least for now and not let it guide your entire life.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m all about not giving up, learning from failure, etc. and I don’t work in IB, despite several final round interviews last year. When I was interviewing, I thought banking was all that I wanted to do in my post-college life. But now, I’ve started a great job doing something else and can’t fathom how I could have wanted to work 100 hour weeks including weekends, when I hate working 60-70 hour weeks now and cherish the social life I have. In hindsight, I’m actually somewhat glad I didn’t get any offers and realize that it probably worked out for the best for me and my life for right now. If banking is something I decide I want to do later on again, so be it, I’ll give it another shot.
But have some fun with your life and don’t let your aspirations to be a first year investment banker keeping you up at night worrying about potential technical questions you may get in an interview (yes, it’s happened to me). Just like there is more than one way to skin a cat, there’s more than one way to be successful, work in PE/HF/etc, or do whatever you “think” is going to make you happy down the line.
Agreed, but anyone looking for information about finance online is going to be VERY determined to get in no matter what
Hey,
I’m in a bit of an annoying situation at the moment. If you could help me out I would really appreciate it.
I’m a UK student. I just graduated this year with a good degree in economics from a top university. However I graduated without having a full time investment banking job lined up. Last summer I did an IBD internship at a top bulge bracket bank (I didn’t get an offer at the end although my performance was good) and another finance related (but not banking) internship this summer. I am determined to get into investment banking (M&A). I have made many full time applications but have not got as many interviews as I was hoping to get (without meaning to sound arrogant with my background I would have expected to get more interviews). If I do not end up with a full time offer which is looking increasingly likely I plan to do a masters next year and reapply again. In the meanwhile (before my masters starts in fall next year) I plan to network extensively to try and secure a banking internship somewhere for next summer before my masters starts. I also plan to travel early next year. Does this sound like a good plan? The masters would be a masters in accounting and finance at another top uni. However as I already have a degree from a top uni how much value will this masters actually add? It’s very expensive and I’m wondering whether it will be worthwhile. However I can’t spend another year not studying or working (I’m only using it as a back up just in case I don’t get a full time job).
Apologies for the length of this post. If you need any clarification I’d be happy to elaborate.
Many thanks.
I think it sounds like a good plan. The Masters degree will not add that much value, but it will give you more time to network which is arguably more important.
Thoughts/opinions on moving to IB from equity research? Is it leverageable at all, or just a slight step-up from back office? How would you spin the story of why you are in ER but you really want IBD?
Say you want to work on transactions and advising companies as opposed to just following the markets. You can definitely do this, but you need to have a solid connection in IBD to make the move.
So what do I say when they ask why I went into research to begin with? Truthfully I took what I could get (I graduated in May when offers were nowhere to be found), but of course I cannot say that.
Say that at the time you thought it would involve more “creative” work and original thought, but realized that wasn’t the case at all – and that your work would be more impactful in IB.
I’m a recent graduate doing doing a 3 month internship (no prior ibanking experience) with a BB right now. Please don’t ask me how I got this opportunity, just lucky. There are a lot of internal opportunities and I’m looking to apply very soon but I want to be very prepared for interviews. Do you have any idea how these interviews will be different, if at all?
The specific position I’m looking at right now lies within a team in the same department I’m currently working for. As an added bonus, I’ve already met a few guys on the team who asked me if I was interested. Anything you would suggest?
The interviews shouldn’t be that much different if you’ve only had a 3-month internship – I’d expect the usual fit and technical questions. Make sure you can back up why you want to move into a division with specific stories / people you’ve spoken with.
I had a three year military service before starting my undergrad education at a target university. I have not been able to secure any internships this year, and am thinking of studying for the GMAT exam this summer instead.
My plan is to get into a top MBA progam in the US (I currently study in the UK). While I’m aware that going to business school straight after college may not be the best option if I want to gain entry to a BB, I was wondering whether my case is different: three years of military service, plus 1.5 years in an IT company I founded (spinned it to sound more finance related).
Will recruiters overlook my CV?
MBA might be ok in your case, just make sure you make your experience very clear and highlight how you have 4-5 years of work experience and are not just straight out of school.
Hi Brian,
Thank you for the helpful article. I am a rising senior at a target school with 3.7GPA. I am currently interning at bulge-bracket PWM in HK and I want to switch over to banking in the top 5 banks in Asia/US. I’d take both locations but I am leaning more towards NYC than HK because I think it’s a better fit.
My question now is that I am considering taking a gap year (delay my graduation) to do something in China. I run a respectable student non-profit and have a big crew coming with in Beijing. I am considering taking a banking internship on the side while starting up a company in a sector of interest (it’s a whole year… I’ll pull it off). Do banks value entrepreneurship experience at all? I am also considering applying to top 3 business school down the line so I am trying to get experiences that will be “interesting” to them.
My big concern is if I want to recruit for next summer’s round of IB internships (HK or NYC), how would they know about my gap year just by looking at my online application? NYC interviews are probably on-campus, so how do I get those if I’m in China?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Banks do value it but not as much as they value a banking internship. You are at a disadvantage for interviews if you’re in China at the time – you’d have to just indicate that and go for interviews on the phone instead of flying on, which can work, but you would lose a lot of networking opportunities.
Brian,
I am not quite sure where to ask this question I hope its reasonably applicable to this column.
I was wondering what your knowledge was on BB banks hiring recent college undergrads for summer analyst/internship positions?
Are there any extenuating circumstances where they may allow or permit this?
I have researched some career-sites and see that some of the banks have specific programs tailored for this. However that was only 1-2 at most. With most other BB banks or larger mid-size finding specific information can be extremely painful. I couldn’t find any data relevant to answer my question so I was hoping you could.
Thanks!
Branden
It’s very rare, I’ve never heard of large banks doing that. I’m sure it has happened but I don’t know much about why – probably most likely if the undergrad is planning to go back for a Master’s program or something like that and therefore they’ll still be in school.
Hi, Brian,
I will be obtaining my Executive MBA from a very good US B-school in March 2011. I have about 5 years of pre-MBA experience, mostly in financial reporting, as we as in marketing and fundraising. I also speak 2 foreing languages in addition to English, and lived in Asia, US and Russia. I have a Finance/Accounting undergrad.
I am trying to land an Associate role with BB Investment Bank, but so far two major manks have already rejected my application (I have applied through their websites.) I know a banker of one of the banks and I had an “informational interview” with him.
I have three questions:
Why does my application for the Associate role get rejected?
Should I speak to my banking contact and ask him for help, or at least find out from their HR why refused my application?
Would I be able to switch to IB from a wealth management role or equity sales role?
Thanks so much for your advice.
J
1. You probably haven’t networked enough or your resume doesn’t stand out.
2. Yes, always always always network.
3. Yes but it’s difficult post-MBA.
Thank you. It is helpful.
J
Hi,
I am currently a senior with GPA 3.5 and I have not been landing any interviews with BBs. I have only prior internships in research and accounting and do not have any big names/IB internships and I think that is the reason. Unfortunately I did not do a lot of networking and I was only applying online. I study at a semi-target school, but I am planning to go to HK, my hometown, for my full time. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you very much, and keep up the articles. I believe they are really helpful to any IB hopefuls.
You pretty much have to network aggressively at this stage – if you look under Recruiting at the top of this page there are dozens of articles and interviews explaining what to do. One point is that networking can be more difficult in HK / Asia in general because it’s more of a traditional environment, so try to focus on bankers from the West…
Hey,
Do you have to be a junior to be a SA at a bank? Do they accept apps from seniors or even grads 1 year out?
Thanks..
Generally yes, though sometimes they take sophomores. Usually they won’t look at seniors and grads 1 year out unless you are set to go to school once again e.g. master’s program
Hey Brian,
I’ve never posted on your site before, but I’ve been an avid fan and reader for several months now, and I attribute much of my success thus far to having read your articles. I’m currently a senior at a Target, but I made the decision to plunge into IB at the end of my Junior year.
I went through the motions of on-campus recruiting last semester, and while I landed several interviews (both first and second round), I didn’t receive any offers. I realized over this winter break (coupled with receiving your “No IB offers?” email) that if I really wanted a job, I had to make it my number one priority.
That being said, with only three days of cold-calling and contact scrounging, I’ve landed three interviews. I guess I just wanted to say thanks and relate to other job-seekers that you can’t kid yourself-if you haven’t been going after it 100%, you’re not going to get an offer. Additionally, you’re gonna be getting advice from a zillion sources throughout the job hunt, but in the end, YOU are the one who makes things happen.
Specifically, I’ll relate how I feel I’ve become a “networking ninja” to hopefully help others realize that you cannot count out ANY contact. A contact is a contact, and some people will surprise you in a big way. Case in point:
At the beginning of my three day job hunt binge, I reached out to a kid I had met at a fraternity conference 2 years ago via Facebook. I vaguely remembered that he had said his brother worked at a MM firm, and I explained my situation and asked him to help me out. Mind you, I knew this kid for a week in 2008. Within an hour, I received a response with his brother’s contact info. I emailed the brother with my resume. Turns out the guy moved on to VC, but he still is good friends with everyone in his old IB group and furthermore HAD RUN RECRUITMENT for the analyst pool before he left for the buy-side. By the end of the day, I had a phone interview lined up, as it just so happened the firm was looking to add more analysts even though formal recruitment had ended – and the group wants to meet with me in person next week. I’m a happy camper.
So thanks again for your site Brian, and best of luck to everyone still in the job hunt.
-Patrick
P.S. Hopefully I’ll be back with an offer :)
Glad to hear it, thanks for sharing that story
Hello Brian,
How about getting into a small PE? What will be my career path like if I land a job in a small PE firm? Can I get into a top MBA school after a few years?
Yes. There is no real “path” it’s completely dependent on how much money you make: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/myth-career-path/
Hi Brian,
I am currently a junior at a semi-target and have managed to secure a BB IBD internship for this summer. All is gravy on the recruiting front, but I’m getting the feeling that my courseload will need me to graduate a term or even a full year after my 4th year.
I understand that if I do stay for a 5th year, I will technically apply next year as a “junior summer analyst” to banks and will have 2 relevant internships from this upcoming summer and the one after that assuming everything goes to plan. When I do recruit for full time during the beginning of my 5th year, do you think this could cause any red flags?
Do you think this is a better idea than trying to take a monstrous courseload untill graduation and do damage to my GPA? All financial problems of tuition aside, I want to know how banks will look at this.
Thanks!
Not really. Much better idea than damaging your GPA.
Hi!
I’ll be graduating soon with an undergrad degree in Economics, and will be working in the PWM division of a Bank.
Besides networking aggressively, is there anything I can do while I work full-time in PWM, to eventually break in to IB?
Also, a number of banks have a Graduate Associate Program which is targeted at individuals with an MBA “and/or” 2-3 professional work experience. Realistically, do I have a chance to make it through this after working in PWM (no MBA)?
Thanks for all the answers!
Not really, other things outside work experience don’t help much. For the Graduate Program if you have a few years of PWM experience yes you could do it
Another plan B (wonder why you didn’t mention that):
My plan B was to go for consulting instead, because you can interview all year round with consulting firms. I obtained an analyst position in Risk Managment Consulting at a well-known firm, and I’m really looking forward to that job :)
Come on now, this is a finance site… consulting shouldn’t even be a Plan D
Hi,
I just got done with my junior year. I am from engineering background.
I am right now interning with a not so big bb.
Do you think it’ll be better to try again for the summer internships by delaying graduation(the first point in Plan B) rather then applying for full time roles. I generally feel getting a full time offer from an internship is easier.
So, I try again for the summer internships and if I land up with a good one and don’t get a full time offer , I can still apply for full time before I graduate next december. I have another option. I can take up a econ/finance/general business major along with engineering ,something like a dual degree/major and extend by an year officially. I feel this is more sensible coz I kinda get some valuable certification in finance and also gives me another chance for the summer internships. And I feel a engineering/finance dual major/degree would put me in a better position overall.
Your opinion please!?
Another question,
Does it make sense to work in the IT department of a bank, say like the ones who develop applications for traders?Front Office IT? or rather work in a tech company? considering I trade regularly and have a tech background.
Thanks
Ohh, btw, this site is a life-saver :)
Yes it can work but may be hard to make the transition search for “middle office”
I would be okay If I get sales and trading or some trading tech role to start with, if not mainstream Ibanking.
What kind of bonuses do middle office guys get? I heard the base salary is the same, right?
Bonuses are way lower than IB, maybe 1/10 of what analysts get
Yes go for summer internships again
If I defer, that’ll be one semester but if I take a second major ie. dual degree , I officially get an year extra. Considering an extra year wouldn’t make a difference because I am in a 3 year programme, like the one in UK and engineering is 4 years in the US and mostly everywhere. So, an extra year is not an problem.
Which path do you suggest?
If you can defer without taking an extra year yes do that
So a bba degree along with engineering would do no good?
This will be two extra semesters compared to one if I defer, so its a matter of one semester.
Do you think the fact that only only elite students are allowed to go for dual degree will give the interviewers a good impression?
I lost track of the original question here but I don’t think it matters all that much, if delaying to get a business degree is feasible then do it.
The good thing is I got interviews from almost all ibanks , basically I have to improve my interview skills.
One more thing, if I am applying for a tech role at a ibank, the resume format should be the same as the one you suggest for Uni students on the your website, right?
Sorry for so many questions.
Yes
Tomorrow I have a informal phone call with a director at a boutique investment bank to discuss the industry and potential job opportunities in his local market. The difference between this and other phone interviews I have landed is that he is my gf’s uncle. I have met and chatted with him a few times at family events, but have never talked business with him (I had absolutely no idea he was a banker), and therefore, am looking for some advice on how to approach the call.
As for some background, I have a PE internship under my belt (boutique PE firm in Mexico City), have done some FCF and scenario analysis as a intern for a growing marketing firm that was looking to acquire some companies (freshman and sophomore yr), and currently work in compliance at a top ten asset mgmt firm (failed on a few interviews, had to get a job, thought more opportunities would come available, but on the bright side of things, realized that I much prefer banking over asset management).
As he knows that I have been looking to move to his area (chattanooga, TN) and have been trying to get an analyst position somewhere, do I play dumb, or be aggressive and see what opportunities his company has etc.
Sorry for the bad grammar/sentence formation, I wrote this in a rush.
The same way you would approach any other call, don’t be awkward, just casually mention it’s good to get a chance to talk with him about this and don’t emphasize your personal connection too much don’t be too aggressive just casually ask at the end if he knows of any openings but don’t push it
Hello Brian,
This past summer I interned at a Big 4 firm in an assurance role and it was awful. Instead of accepting a FT offer in that function, I secured a transfer into the firm’s M&A Strategy Advisory department. The Partners there are all ex-directors from BBs.
Should I accept the offer, network with management and build a solid technical foundation, and then try to lateral into IB? Or should I hold out for IBanking interviews? The only relevant experience I have on my resume is the audit work I did this past summer…that is to say, tie-outs.
If you can buy yourself more time, I’d try to interview with as many IBanks as possible.
If you can’t buy more time, I’d figure out
a. how much do i really want to work for this big4 team. will i enjoy the work or the team?
b. what are the chances (be honest) that I can actually land an offer with an ibank? How confident are you in landing yourself an offer with an IB? (You’d probably be competing against peeps with previous experience in IB, which might potentially make it harder for you to get into IB.)
While I think it is not difficult for you to move from your dept at the big 4 to IB given the skills you will gain from that job, there is a risk that moving to IB might be more difficult than you think. However, you might end up liking your job so much that you don’t move. :)
Thanks Nicole!
The M&A Strat team is very small and I will actually be the only individual without 2-3 years of prior work experience. I think it’d be a great setting for development (fewer hours than ibanking, more attention from seniors).
I’m not really confident of my chances with BBs right now, even though I do have several contacts in the industry. I just have no background to go on.
How long would you recommend staying with the Big 4 department before lateraling over, if I choose to do so?
I’d recommend at least one year to learn the ropes. However, if the right opportunity presents itself, I’d take it. Don’t think too much, just continue networking throughout your career and see what opportunities come up
Hello M&I Team,
I have a question concerning delayed graduation. I’m currently a fourth year senior at college, but recently discovered that one class is preventing me from graduating on time this Spring. This means I am considered in “junior” standing for recruitment.
The reason for me graduating late is because (A)I am a triple major (with one minor) and (B) I did a fully-funded (through an extension Fulbright and several program and university merit scholarships) semester abroad in Shanghai.
So, if I graduate in December 2012, will this put me at a disadvantage for internship recruitment? I don’t want banks to think I’m a lazy or dumb super senior with no planning sense for graduating late.
No I don’t think banks will think you are lazy as long as you have a proper explanation. However, you’ll probably have to get a full time job which starts right after Dec 2012 – you’ll have to speak to the banks, network, land an internship in the summers, and hopefully have an offer by the time you graduate. If not, you can just delay the whole process for one year.
I really wouldn’t worry about graduating in December. The only potential issue is that most recruiting schedules are based on spring graduations. So, as Nicole noted, make sure you are job hunting/networking during the summer.
Brian,
I have previously read the articles in which you discussed interviews, full time offers, not getting them, etc. Is it unheard of if you don’t get a full time offer as an investment banking analyst from a bank, but the same bank contacts you about you being a good fit for another department (i.e. sales and trading) and giving you a full time offer there. Or if you interview for a certain position and don’t get it, your essentially finished?
Yeah it definitely happens. Not common, but I have seen that before where one division gives you an offer and the other does not.
Hi Brian,
I hope this message finds me well. Thank you for posting these articles. They are very helpful. I do have a question that is a bit specific to my situation and I hope you could help me.
I am from one of the top liberal arts schools in the US, with Mathematics and Economics major, GPA 3.9+. I completed an internship last summer in the ECM Group of a bulge-bracketed investment bank in Singapore. The internship went very well and I received very good reviews. However, I did not get their full time offer, and from what I can sense, it might be because of the lack of equity deal flows in South East Asia after the downgrade has forced the group to downsize. I went back to the US for my senior year and had a lot of interviews, but only 2 in investment banking since not many banks recruit full time this year (their class is filled by the returning summer interns). Of the two investment banking interviews that I got, I got to their final round but did not end up getting extended an offer.
Now, I have two offers from very well-known economic consulting firms, with strong track-record of sending people to top business schools, and am waiting for a reply from a high-end boutique management consulting firm. I was wondering, though, how much chance you think I will have to break into IB in the associate level after about 2-3 years working in economic consulting and then go to business school. What else would you recommend that I should do in order to maximize my chance of breaking into IB?
Thank you so much for your help.
Anthony.
Chances from Econ consulting to IB – hm you really need to spin your story right. Ibankers want peeps w exposure to deals so not sure if Econ consulting is too relevant. Network a lot w bankers to break in. If you really want an MBA, a top tier one can retool you and help you break in but it’s not a guarantee w a high opportunity cost !
Hi Nicole,
Thank you for your answer. So the switch from Econ consulting to IB is still harder than the switch from Management consulting to IB? In Econ consulting I plan to be in anti-trust or finance groups that focuses on litigations. Would that help at all?
Anthony.
I think it will be hard for both to switch into IB in this environment because bankers want deal experience. Unless you have that and/or list of corporate clients, you’ll have to network extensively and spin your story really well
i recruited for ib this semester and despite getting to a few final rounds (despite the gazillion interviews i got without networking), i wasnt good enough to secure any offers. i have an offer with an economic consulting firm (one of the top). if i take this full time offer, how improbable would it be for me to lateral into a first year banking analyst position next year? i have a high gpa from a target, and have spent summers in a boutique ibanks and bulge bracket as well.
I’m sorry to hear re your rejections. It happens to the best of us.
I think taking this full time offer isn’t the be all end all. You can still network w bankers and try to move your way in. If you’re going to be in econ consulting, it might be easier for you to switch into equity research though.
I have a question regarding extra semesters. I haven’t had much success with FT offers thus far, and SA recruiting is fast coming up. I am considering taking an extra semester, but I find it very difficult to answer the “why did you take an extra semester” question. An honest answer would be that 1) I want another shot at banking and 2) want to take the extra semester to finish off a second major (economics) and gain a better understanding of the markets. Does that sound too wishy-washy, though? What are generally some good reasons for an extra semester that recruiters like to hear?
Just say #2 – that you wanted to finish a second major to gain a better understanding, or better yet, to meet prominent people in the industry or get to some project you wanted to work on for a long time. People also cite minors, leadership roles, and others as possible reasons for wanting to do an extra semester.
One other question: let’s say (hypothetically) that I go through recruiting and manage to get a summer offer, but things don’t work out as I planned and I end up having to graduate in June 2012 instead (there are many factors that could influence this, but not really that important to the question). Would my internship offer be retracted or something? It’s a concern because I won’t know whether I can do the extra semester until probably March or so, and by then summer recruiting will be wrapping up, so if I want a summer program I have to start looking now… but at the same time I am not 100% sure of my extra semester. Excuse me if that was extremely confusing.
I don’t think it would be retracted, but if you’re not staying an extra semester they might make you start later anyway (so not just go straight from internship to full-time job) depending on deal activity, the economy, etc. Would not even bring that up until you get an offer from them during the internship.
Hi Brian,
I recently graduated from non-target school, with degree of economics. I am currently working as an paid intern at merchant bank, and planning to get additional internship at boutique IB. I am planning to apply to MM IB summer analyst program through networking. Do you think it would be better to apply for full-time or summer analyst position?