How to Break Out of “Harold & Kumar” Mode and Use Investment Banking Information Sessions to Break Into the Industry
“Uh, this is actually a two-part question. I’m applying for a summer internship at Brewster Keegan, and I was wondering:
a) what it’s like being an investment banker and
b) if you would write me a recommendation.”
-Kenneth, Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle
If you’ve been to any investment banking information sessions lately, you might be reminded of that scene in Harold & Kumar with all those Princeton kids crowded around Harold asking him “what it’s like being an investment banker” (oh, and for a recommendation too).
If the sessions are crowded with 10 students surrounding each banker, how do you make a good impression and use them effectively?
You don’t.
Ok, that’s an exaggeration.
Information sessions can be part of your strategy, but you should never rely on them. If you are in the position to use them, here’s how to do so without looking like Kenneth.
Why Most Information Sessions Resemble That Scene from Harold & Kumar
There are a few reasons why information sessions usually range from marginally helpful to completely useless:
- The obvious reasons – far too many students attend them, and it’s tough to get 1-on-1 time with any bankers.
- The barriers to entry are too low. Anything you can leverage that other people can’t gives you a big advantage when networking – but anyone can attend information sessions.
- There are many ways to screw up but very few ways to genuinely impress the bankers there (credit to Management Consulted for this point).
- Informational sessions occur late in the recruiting process, right before a resume drop – at that stage it’s hard to spend time developing new relationships, so you can’t gain much of an advantage.
This is not to say that you shouldn’t go to any sessions. It’s just that you shouldn’t focus on them – and you need to spend most of your time networking outside the sessions, even if those efforts start with contacts you made at the sessions.
But They Must Be Helpful for Someone, Right?
2 groups, in particular, have the most to gain from information sessions:
- “Early starters” – anyone in his or her 1st or 2nd year at the university level who still has time to develop relationships. This concept is less relevant at the MBA level.
- Anyone going to a “non-target school” – somewhere banks don’t recruit at – who attends sessions at a more heavily-recruited school.
The first point should be intuitive: of all the relevant factors when breaking into investment banking (networking, resumes, interview skills), developing substantial relationships through networking helps you the most – by far.
With more time, you can develop deeper relationships and gain a much bigger advantage in recruiting.
On the second point, keep in mind what we said above: anything you do that others don’t automatically gives you an advantage. It’s not common for students to attend information sessions at other schools – so you can stand out quite a bit by doing so.
If the session is focused exclusively on alumni, you may draw some negative reactions – but if it’s big enough, you can usually find at least a few bankers who are receptive to your cause.
Even if you’re not in one of these 2 groups, though, you should still consider attending at least a few information sessions.
What to Get Out of Them
This one’s easy: contacts. Sure, there are other ancillary benefits – such as finding out more about the industry, seeing if it’s right for you or not, and making a good impression on anyone involved in recruiting at your school.
Those are all fine, but with the possible exception of the last one there are other ways to accomplish each one.
The advantage of information sessions is that you get to meet dozens of bankers in the span of a few hours – it’s like speed dating for jobs.
Just like speed dating, you won’t develop real relationships with everyone you meet – but efficiency-wise it’s hard to beat information sessions.
Rules of Engagement
So you’re networking your way into investment banking and have decided that you’ll go to at least a few information sessions as part of your recruiting strategy. You’re contacting alumni and acquaintances on your own and making lots of other networking efforts outside the sessions, but you figure it can’t hurt to check them out, right?
Sure – but you need to make the most of your time.
Recall what we said above about the ease of screwing up compared to the difficulty of impressing bankers – most of the guidelines below are more about not making mistakes rather than being a star.
1. Don’t Be Kenneth from Harold & Kumar
Don’t ask stupid questions that can be easily answered elsewhere. Make your discussion personal and specific to the background of the person you’re speaking with – stay away from “Where is the industry heading?” or “How do you like being an investment banker?” type questions.
Better questions: “What was your background before getting into banking?”; “You mentioned that you work in the Financial Sponsors group – have you worked on any of the big consolidation deals lately?”
The difference between a poor question and a good question lies in the specificity. To pull this off, you need to spend your time asking open-ended questions and listening to what they say.
2. Don’t Be Urkel, Either
By the same token, you don’t want to be so detailed in your questions that you scare them away.
People often get the idea that it’s good to ask questions like, “So do you provide both bank debt and mezzanine financing to your clients in addition to comprehensive M&A advisory services?”
Pretend you’re meeting a new friend – not that you’re reciting a laundry list of finance terms to your professor.
You should approach interviews the same way as well: go for the personal connection rather than reciting obscure technical concepts.
Yes, it’s good to do your homework and be knowledgeable about the industry – but it’s also good to come across as someone who bankers could stand to be around at 3 AM while fixing typos in a pitch book.
3. Get Business Cards from Everyone
Don’t spend too much time speaking with any one individual – maybe 5-10 minutes at most. Your goal is to make a good impression and come across as likable rather than just another guy/girl from Harold & Kumar.
Most importantly, make sure you get a business card and contact information from each person you speak to – there’s no point in going to information sessions unless you get this information and then act on it.
Focus on anyone who isn’t surrounded by 10 other students (if they exist).
4. Follow-Up Within the Next Few Days
This goes back to the point above on barriers to entry: it’s very easy to go to information sessions. What’s more difficult is following up with bankers you meet there and developing relationships.
From my own speeches and presentations, I know that typically less than 1% of event attendees ever bother to follow-up – even if they’ve made a connection and have direct access to someone who can answer many of their questions.
There is absolutely no point in going to information sessions unless you get business cards and then use them to start conversations with bankers.
5. If There Are 10 “Kenneth”‘s Surrounding a Banker, Don’t Hesitate to Jump in Anyway
So what do you do if there are 10 students surrounding one banker and no one else is free or there aren’t many representatives there?
Jump in anyway – with more interesting questions than anyone else is asking. Remember, most of the students there will not have read this article and are still in Harold & Kumar mode, wondering “what it’s like being an investment banker.”
If you’re bold and ask pointed but appropriate questions, you can stand out and shift the banker’s focus to you right away.
Think about most of the bankers there: they’ve just pulled an all-nighter, gotten off a flight, or dealt with some annoying, high-maintenance client. After the session, they’re about to go back to work for even more of that.
The last thing they want to hear is another “Kenneth” question – so take a bold approach and don’t be afraid to jump into a large group with a question that doesn’t inspire them to dive into an acid-coated shark tank.
They might just like your style.
Other Tips
There are tons of other small tips you could use in informational sessions: dress well (business attire – don’t look like you’re about to go to a concert or like you just got back from a funeral), gravitate toward alumni from your school (if the session features bankers from multiple schools), and don’t spend too much time on anyone you already know.
Combined with the points above, these will set you apart from all the “Kenneth”‘s out there.
Other Breeds of Information Sessions
The type of event covered here is just one breed of information session. Other sessions are more like job fairs, where you walk around and literally have first-round interviews on the spot; still other sessions only have a few representatives from each company and they’re more about exploring rather than breaking in.
The more specific the information session, the more helpful it is for you.
Here’s a real example from my own history:
Right after I returned from Asia several years ago, I attended the Boston Career Forum, an event focused on jobs and internships in Japan.
Since you had to be bilingual and had to have some experience in the region, the barriers to entry were high. And as one of the few Westerners there, I stood out even more.
As you’d expect, there were not as many opportunities as you’d find at a more general US-focused job fair – but the “conversion rate” from interviews to offers was much higher. I won multiple offers from a single weekend of work, even though I spoke with fewer than 10 banks/finance firms.
If you want to gain a real advantage in networking, you should seek out targeted opportunities like this one.
Further Reading
I did some research while writing this article and came to a sobering conclusion: like so many other areas of finance, there’s hardly anything online that’s both valuable and specific. I found some good discussions on message boards, but nothing comprehensive that went through all aspects of information sessions.
The closest resource I could find: Kevin from Management Consulted gives a good overview of consulting information sessions, and many of his insights apply to investment banking information sessions as well.
If you know of other helpful resources on this topic, please let me know or write about them in the comments below.
Breaking Out of Harold & Kumar Mode
If you follow everything here, you’ll be in a better position than 90% of information session attendees.
You don’t want to follow a “Jack Bauer” strategy for information sessions (torturing bankers to get an interview is not recommended), but you definitely don’t want to follow a Harold & Kumar strategy.
So use common sense, and please, no questions on “what it’s like being an investment banker.”
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But, what is it like being an investment banker :p
Good post, I just wish there actually were information sessions within 200 miles of where I go to school. Any thoughts on what to do in a situation like that?
Agreed, Chloe is probably your best answer. Failing that, I’d recommend getting out there and traveling – yes it’s expensive but honestly nothing compares to face-to-face meetings… it’s an investment.
You don’t need info sessions necessarily but I’d strongly recommend meeting in-person with as many bankers as you can.
Get Chloe to set up a wireless video feed to a target school and route it through the CTU proxy servers to filter out the stupid questions.
I haven’t been to a career fair in ages and agree with a lot of this. It would have helped a lot if I knew what I wanted when I graduated from undergrad.
Yeah, but hardly anyone knows that. I changed my mind about 10 times…
I’ve been to an information session at a uni before with ibanker alumini. I actually made a connection too with one guy, although thinking that they would be too busy and not want someone sending them annoying emails etc, I didn’t bother asking for a business card… Sounds like that was short sighted on my part.
Yeah you definitely want to get their contact information – sure, some bankers might not be receptive but others will be more helpful.
Who is the best to contact when trying to find an insider with possible knowledge of current or future job opportunties? What level are responisble for hiring new associate or analyst?
Is the hiring responsiblity the task of the Associate, VP or MD? And, if so, how do I find the company’s directory or organizational map?
Uh, well no bank is going to publicly give that information unless they’re really small. But ultimately MDs make hiring decisions – but it’s also usually tougher to reach them without a connection or introduction. So I would start with contacting lower level people first and then try to move up based on that.
Here’s my “move” that I usually pull when talking with someone:
After a few minutes of conversing – usually with other undergrads asking questions as well – I’ll tell the person that I have to go to class/work/meeting/etc. but I’d love to have a business card so I can email with further questions.
Then, in the email, I let him/her know I was the one who had to leave early, which is probably more memorable than saying “I was the one who asked you about your daily routine…”
Thoughts on this? It seems to have worked well and I’ve kept in contact with quite a few people from these sessions.
That’s a good strategy and I could definitely see how it would work well in info. sessions – anything that makes you stand out (in a good way) is good.
Is there one MD specific responsible for the new hires? Or do I have to contact the MD for each group. And if so, what groups are the relatively easy and the most difficult to get into?
Usually one MD in each group will handle hires… there is not one who’s responsible across the firm. Group difficulty is completely dependent on the bank and the group and changes very quickly so it’s hard to generalize.
If I already posess a master degree. should I try to seek an associate position or an analyst position?
Unless it’s an MBA, Analyst is more appropriate.
hi – Just wanted to reply to your note on the MBA… I do posses an MBA + 3 years of corp finance experience, but my MBA is not from a top B-school – it has an international accreditation, but is from small private school that may not be known by recruiters.
Do I have a chance to breaking in as an associate?
You have a chance but it will probably be tough to get into bulge bracket banks because you already have some experience and don’t have a top name.
I know you touched on corporate finance roles at fortune 500 companies in a previous post, but I wanted to ask my particular question in an active post.
I was wondering if you think working in corp. finance preMBA is adequate experience to get into Ibanking post MBA. Just to clarify, when saying I work in corp. finance, I am not talking A/R, A/P, but more along the lines of developing our post-merger operational model, long term cashflow modelling, improving cash generation etc.
Thanks..
Yeah that sounds fine
Thanks to your interview guide, after today’s CS first round interview for SA, I got a callback to the final rounds, which happens to be tomorrow. I’ve heard different things about final round interviews. Some people say that it will be all behavorial fit questions, while others have told me it will be very technical. What should I expect?
Congrats on the interview. its hard to generalize because every place does it differently – some people continue getting technical questions while others are all fit. bottom line is I would be prepared for either scenario and more than any preparation, make sure you get enough sleep so you come across as personable… thats more important than technical questions.
JH, I have first round with Credit Suisse on Monday. Care to share what some questions were?
Thank you for the article. I have a question for you. I live in New York City and I was thinking about attending an investment banking information session. But the problem is I don’t know when they are held and where. Can you please guide me on how I can attend a session? Thank you.
Are you still in school? This article was referring mostly to info. sessions held at universities / b-schools. If you’re already out, I would talk to some friends who are still in school or maybe call the recruiting offices directly and find out when info. sessions are held. I’m honestly not sure how many / (if any) info. sessions are held outside the university environment.
What is a good estimate of how much summer interns get paid?
$10-15K for banking
Hey I have been trying to prepare for my meetings next week in NY and will be downloading/listening to your podcasts while on the plane. I will be meeting with a few MD’s, consultants, and a banker….what’s your best advice? What sort of questions should I ask them? How much time do you think I should spend reviewing technical questions? Or do you think its advisable to have a good story of why I want to get into Banking/Trading instead? As always, I look forward to hearing your response.
Story is the most important part of any meeting / interview so focus on that. Be very casual and focus the questions on themselves rather than asking generic stuff about the industry / banking / consulting.
To add to my comment before….These contacts are all people I have discovered through family and friends and have pretty good relationships with those people already. They know I am looking for a job but I told them that I wanted to meet with them just to talk for a bit and all of them were pretty open to that, and had their secretary set up a meeting (or set one up themselves). Please let me know what you think! PS Once I return I plan on purchasing the BIWS course :)
Yup advice would not change too much – be casual, and make sure you are doing 90% of the question-asking. Try to do some research on them beforehand so you can ask more targeted questions about their background and how they got to where they are now – google searches, linkedin, etc. should be able to tell you a lot as well.
Just think its worth pointing out that sometimes its worth spending a lot of time with one banker. I went to a BB networking event, got talking to an associate, spent about an hour chatting, had a few drinks and he ended up taking my name (and me friend who was with me) to give to HR to “watch out for”. Got invite to interview about 2 days after submitting an application online.
Sometimes it works out. I went to about 6 others with no tangible benefit to me.
Yeah you have to read the situation… if you’re getting a good vibe, stay there, if not, move on.
I went to an IB info session today. How surprised I was to see just how many people ask about “How’s it like being an i-banker?” and so on so thanks a lot for your post. And today I did learn a lot about the bank and its culture, but unfortunately they specifically said they will not consider sophomores for internships. Should I follow up any way?
Yup still follow-up anyway. Never take “no” for an answer (obviously don’t be annoying about it, but even if they say that, it’s still good to reach out to them now and form the relationships early).
hello,
I just went to an info session the other day, and I followed up with an e-mail the next morning. Would it be appropriate to send them an e-mail after I’ve dropped my resume online?
Eh you could but personally I’d try to call them or set up an in-person meeting at this point.
Is it okay to walk in late to these kinds of sessions? Due to my class I will have to walk in 35-40 minutes late. Would this make a bad impression?
No, late is fine
You actually answered an email for me recently – thanks a lot for your help! I’ve been going to info sessions, getting business cards and trying to follow up a few days afterward. In the emails, I usually say something along the lines of “I asked about graduate students applying for a summer internship…” in order to remind them of who I was. Is that a good way to re-introduce yourself? I also usually ask another question or two in the email. If they don’t reply within a week, what’s the best way to follow up again? Specifically, I don’t want to be redundant by basically copying/pasting the original email but I still have the same questions. Would I reference the old email, or treat the new one as if it’s the first?
That’s fine. I would try via email once again and if still no response, try calling instead. You can just make a shorter version of the first email.
Hi Brian,
For follow-up emails, what would one usually say? Basically just reiterating your interest in IB and whether summer internshps or whether FT analyst/associate roles are avail would be appropriate?
What’s the mindset on follow up? I am just not sure what questions one should be asking…
If its after an info session I would just ask to set up a 10-15 minute call and then ask about interviews at the end.
Hi Brian,
Should I spend time talking to HR and get their contact info as well? Do they make important decisions throughout the recruiting process? If so, what kind of questions should I ask them or not ask them?
I would not spend time talking to HR, they tend to be pretty useless. Always better to go to bankers directly.
Hey Brian,
What do you think is a good “bold” question to ask to get the banker’s attention if he/she is surrounded by wannabes? Should it be personal or business-related? Also do you think it is bad to hand them your resumes; if so, how would you make them remember you (only by following-up)?
Just say something like, “Are these guys all boring you with asking what it’s like to be a banker?” or something like that that pokes fun at the other people. I wouldn’t hand out your resume, just get their card and follow-up.