by Brian DeChesare Comments (156)

From Big 4 Restructuring to Investment Banking: How to Make the Leap

From Big 4 Restructuring to Investment Banking: How to Make the Leap

“Help! I hate my accounting job and want to move into banking, what do I do?”

“What group should I transfer to if I want to get into finance?”

“My Big 4 salary doesn’t give me enough cash for bottles!”

If you’re at a Big 4 firm right now, you’ve had one of the thoughts above before – maybe multiple times.

We covered how to move from accounting to investment banking before, but this time around there’s a different twist – an interview with a reader who moved from a Big 4 restructuring group to investment banking.

Here’s how he made the leap, and how you can do the same:

Background & Culture

Q: Let’s start with your background – how’d you end up at the Big 4 firm, and what did you do before that?

A: Sure. I actually started out as an athlete, and played at the college level for a few years before I got a serious injury that ended my career.

Then, I transferred to a smaller and lesser-known school in the Midwest, and got more interested in finance once I knew that being a professional athlete was no longer an option.

The investment banking industry is smaller in the Midwest, but there are still a few local banks there and they were doing a lot of distressed M&A deals for the auto industry, so I started contacting them and asking about internships each week.

After a ton of networking, one bank finally caved in and decided that they needed an intern – so I joined and got to help out with a few live deals there.

As graduation approached, I continued networking and found a few guys who used to work at a very well-known PE firm.

They had just started a lower middle-market fund just for family/small-business investments, and they needed some analysis done on Project Finance-type investments (power plants and such). I volunteered to do the modeling for that, and they were impressed with my work and turned it into a full-time internship.

Since I had so much experience in restructuring, I went to a restructuring group at a Big 4 firm after my internship at the middle-market PE fund. I stayed there for around a year, and then recently moved to a bulge bracket bank.

Q: That’s a great story – before we jump into it in more detail, I think a lot of readers might wonder what it’s like working at a Big 4 firm in their restructuring group.

We’ve covered the work and culture in IB and PE before, so how would you say the Big 4 firm compared to those?

A: There was definitely a skill set overlap – we did lots of cash flow modeling, presentations to lenders, and distressed M&A deals where we advised the company on selling, restructuring, or bankruptcy options. We also worked with the big auto companies, so you got good exposure to their finance teams.

The financial modeling and deal skills were similar, but there was a big cultural difference because we only worked on 1-2 projects at once and the hours were very, very tame. I only worked on one weekend, and a “late night” was staying to 8 or 9 PM.

So it was quite a bit different from the “work hard, play hard” culture of banking where everyone works to the point of exhaustion, and then drinks to the point of passing out.

Q: Why do you think there’s that cultural difference? Deals are still deals, so I don’t understand how you could “choose” to be less busy if you’re working with Fortune 500 clients all the time.

A: It’s mostly because financial advisory services were a very small part of what the firm did. At an M&A boutique bank, 100% of revenue comes from advisory, but at this Big 4 firm advisory accounted for maybe 2% of revenue.

Their focus was accounting/audit and consulting – they had investment banking and restructuring services, but they were an afterthought next to everything else there.

Q: OK, so it sounds like they consciously chose not to take on as much business as they could have since it wasn’t their core focus.

Obviously you did well moving into banking from restructuring, but what other groups would be good if you wanted to make the Big 4 to IB move?

A: As you’ve mentioned before, Transaction Advisory Services (TAS) can be good since you get exposed to bankers in some scenarios.

But I don’t think it’s necessarily the best group all the time because many TAS groups focus on accounting and due diligence, and you may not get exposed to valuation, financial modeling, or other aspects of the deal. They may also spend a lot of time on tasks that bankers don’t care about, such as making sure that working capital requirements are met when a deal closes.

So I would recommend looking at the internal middle-market banks that all Big 4 firms have – they do mostly sell-side advisory, and while it’s not comparable to the experience you’d get at a real bank, it’s closer than most other groups at the Big 4. Here are links to each firm’s internal bank:

And then anything transaction-related – like the restructuring group I was in – could work as well.

Networking & Interviews

Q: Can you talk about the networking you did to get the bulge bracket offer? What was the best source for finding contacts and meeting bankers?

A: Keep in mind that I had been networking all along, ever since I got my original internship via aggressive cold-calling.

So it was just continuing what I had already started – I took the Big 4 offer knowing that I still wanted to move into banking and would have to continue networking.

It was difficult to find bankers at first because few alumni worked in finance, I didn’t have co-workers I could reliably ask, and headhunters were useless unless you had at least some full-time work experience.

Q: So where did you find bankers if not through the usual sources like your alumni database?

A: A couple ways:

  1. High School Contacts – Even though my university had few alumni in finance, there were quite a lot from my high school who worked in the industry.
  2. Random Online Contact – I would just go through LinkedIn and look up bankers in the Midwest and start reaching out them like that.
  3. Cold-Calling/Emailing – This is how I got my first internship. It’s time-consuming and has a low hit rate, but it does work.
  4. Upscale Gyms – I joined a few higher-end gyms in my area and ran into a bunch of financiers there. I met a few bankers, people in private wealth management, management and turnaround consultants, and even a PE Partner like that.

All of that helped, but the most helpful thing for me was always asking, “I’m interviewing with this group / interested in this area – do you know anyone else I could speak with?”

I got tons of referrals with that line at the end of each call or meeting. It sounds very simple, but you’d be surprised at how many people are too afraid to make simple requests in a conversation.

Q: I really like the tip about upscale gyms; it reminds me of Gordon Gekko playing racquetball.

So it sounds like your strategy was pretty similar to what we’ve covered here before with investment banking networking, setting up informational interviews, and then following up aggressively.

How did you spin your resume when you were applying, since the Big 4 firm was your only full-time experience?

A: I actually downplayed the Big 4 experience, because I felt my banking internship and my work at the middle-market PE fund were both more relevant. So I focused on those and described my transaction experience using the template you’ve suggested before.

For my Big 4 experience, I focused on the valuation and modeling work and left out anything that was closer to accounting/audit.

Even though I had worked in restructuring there, I was interested in moving to industry or M&A groups in investment banking, so I didn’t want to make myself look too specialized by writing 100% about restructuring or distressed deals.

Q: That makes sense, and it’s great advice for anyone who has worked in a more specialized group and wants to move elsewhere.

What about the interviews themselves? Were they mostly technical or deal experience-focused?

A: They focused a lot on my deal experience – and more my experience at the bank and PE firm rather than in my restructuring group.

There were technical questions, but they were more curious about why certain deals happened, potential complications, and what I thought of the valuation and the process for different companies.

For some of the industry groups, a key question was “Why this industry?” They get a lot of people who don’t know why they want to work with financial institutions or industrial companies or whatever they cover.

Q: We covered a few possible answers to that one before, but what did you say?

A: In my final year of university I had completed a finance course where we valued companies in different industries, so I used that as my “spark” to show them how I got interested at first.

It didn’t work for every industry group, but by using that I could at least talk about my interest in the more common ones, like energy, financial institutions, and industrials.

I also used a few of your industry-specific modeling courses to demonstrate my interest and they were really impressed with that, since hardly anyone else had gone to the effort of completing entire case studies on these companies.

Q: I’m surprised by that one, because we generally tell customers that the industry-specific courses are more helpful once you’re already working – but you found them useful for interviews as well?

A: Yes – even just seeing real examples of NAV or dividend discount models for different types of companies was very helpful, because then I could walk through them in interviews.

And these were lateral interviews at the top bulge bracket banks – even there most other interviewees still hadn’t done as much as preparation as you might expect.

Q: Well, glad to hear the courses were helpful!

It seems like the interview process was straightforward for you, but I’m sure bankers had at least a few “objections” to your background. What were the key issues, and how did you overcome them?

A: Their main concern was that my academic experience looked very spotty.

I had taken a year off after I got my injury back in college, and then had to enroll in another school and ended up missing another semester, so it looked like I had taken forever to graduate and had been to school twice.

Some bankers just focused on that for 100% of the interview – they asked about all my gaps in education and why I had gone to schools they never heard of.

I answered those questions by explaining that for my first 2 years in university, I was practicing constantly, still doing well in school, and working 1-2 part-time jobs at the same time. So I spun a negative into a positive, and pointed out that I was working crazy hours a good portion of the time and could therefore handle the hours of a bulge bracket bank.

And then I also had my previous IB and PE internships, so they weren’t too concerned by the end.

What If? And the Future

Q: Since you had those internships, you had 100% relevant experience when applying to larger banks.

But what advice would you give someone who’s at a Big 4 firm in some other role, like audit? What should they do if they have no transaction experience and want to get into IB?

A: First, get out of audit immediately. Do something – anything – more stimulating.

People make fun of investment banking for being mindless work, but in my opinion audit is even worse because it’s so mundane.

At least with deals, you witness drama as different buyers and sellers express interest, back out, make different proposals, and negotiate. In audit you’re staring at numbers all day unless you happen to uncover the next Enron.

Most Big 4 firms are fine with internal transfers – it’s often easier than it is at a bank. Sometimes the Partner you’re working for may take it personally, but that depends on your group.

You should reach out to the other group you’re interested in first, contact people there, and make sure they know what you’re interested in doing before you even run the idea by your current boss.

The Big 4 firms all have lots of events and internal mixers where professionals in different areas can meet each other, so it’s easier to get to know other groups than it would be in IB – most people don’t work more than 50-60 hours per week, so they have the time to help you.

You really have no excuse not to move to a group that’s more closely related to banking – I would recommend restructuring, valuation, internal M&A, and TAS as your best options.

Q: It’s interesting to hear that the internal transfer may be easier at Big 4 firms, but I guess the culture is just more relaxed across the board.

So now that you’ve won this bulge bracket offer, what’s next for you? Will you stay at your new bank for some time, or are you thinking about moving to the buy-side?

A: Unlike most other bankers, I’m actually interested in staying in IB for the long-term.

Back when I was interviewing for this role, a number of distressed investment funds also approached me, but I wasn’t interested in PE back then and I’m not interested now, either.

My key issue is that you must put your own money to work to progress in PE.

It’s not just Partners investing the fund’s capital – they also put in their own funds, so a poor investment could wipe out a good chunk of your personal savings.

Yes, the pay ceiling is higher and you could make mind-boggling money – but let’s be honest, at the MD/Partner-level, the average is about the same in both industries. The outliers in PE make far more, but for me the risk isn’t worth it.

The other issue is that private equity is much less of a team environment than banking, and coming from an athletic background I enjoy working in teams more than the solo work that you see in PE.

Q: That makes a lot of sense, and that point you raised about putting your own money to work is a great one that often goes overlooked. Thanks again for taking the time out to chat, I learned a lot!

A: You’re welcome, it was my pleasure.

M&I - Brian

About the Author

Brian DeChesare is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and Breaking Into Wall Street. In his spare time, he enjoys memorizing obscure Excel functions, editing resumes, obsessing over TV shows, traveling like a drug dealer, and defeating Sauron.

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by Brian DeChesare Comments (74)

Planes, Trains and Capital Equipment: What You Do In the Industrials Group at an Investment Bank

Planes, Trains and Capital Equipment: What You Do In the Industrials Group at an Investment Bank

One question I’ve gotten a lot over the years is what different groups at a bank do.

Yes, everyone knows that M&A is supposedly more technical than other areas, but what about other industry and product groups?

Some of that has been answered with coverage of ECM and related groups – and today we’re going to fill in more of the puzzle via an interview with a reader who works in an industrials group.

Here’s what it’s like, how it’s different from other groups, who does the work, and how you get recruited into these groups:

Definitions

Q: I get a lot of questions on which group is “the best” and how modeling and technical work is split among industry groups and product groups (M&A, LevFin, etc.) at a bank.

What has your experience been so far? Do the product groups do most of the heavy lifting?

A: Generally the product groups, such as M&A and Leveraged Finance, are more modeling-oriented – but the analysts there also don’t get much of the industry exposure that you would get from being in a strong coverage group.

The three-statement model or standalone operating model is the standard model used in any industry coverage group, so you do get exposure to that.

Many people assume that more modeling is always better, but like anything else it’s a trade-off – for me, the “best” group is the one that gives the most well-rounded experience and lets me work with companies I’m interested in.

I like being in an industry group because I get to work on a wider range of deals, rather than just M&A or just debt offerings.

I’m also more interested in industrials than other groups – I prefer to read about railroads rather than semiconductors.

While the work itself in a technology group and an industrials group may not be that much different, I find myself far more interested in the latter.

Q: Is an industry group always “an industry group?” What determines how much marketing work (pitch books) you do vs. how much deal and advisory work you do?

A: That’s a good point – there are actually a couple group variations:

  1. Origination – These groups just do marketing and pitch for new clients, especially on financing assignments.
  2. Advisory – This is the traditional M&A work that banks are associated with.
  3. Coverage – In this group there are elements of both origination and advisory work, but you’re focused on a particular sector.

Since I’m in a coverage group I do both marketing and client work – I bring this up because a lot of people incorrectly assume that an industry group is 100% marketing and a product group like M&A is 100% deal execution.

That said, there is definitely an emphasis on knowing the sector in coverage groups.

Q: Right, so it sounds like “industry groups” should really be labeled “coverage groups” if we wanted to be more accurate.

What kinds of companies do you cover in industrials and how is the group divided into different sub-industries?

A: Most investment banks divide industrials into capital goods (machinery, equipment, anything used to produce other goods) and transportation (railroads, trucking, and so on) groups.

Sometimes there’s overlap with related groups such as natural resources and chemicals; for example, a metals and mining group might fall under industrials or it might be classified under natural resources.

One of the areas I work on is aerospace and defense, which is usually a sub-group within industrials (capital goods).

Dealing

Q: What types of deals do you work on and how is the work divided between your group and product / other groups?

For example, let’s say you’re working on a sell-side M&A deal – who would be responsible for the buyer list, the Information / Offering Memorandum, model, management presentation, and final negotiations?

A: We get exposed to all types of deals, but my group is strongest in M&A advisory followed by high-yield debt; we don’t do many equity issuances.

There is also some restructuring, for example, in the airline industry – though that is more of a transportation sub-sector. Aerospace works with the parts manufacturers (ex: Precision Castparts, Spirit Aerosystems, etc..) instead.

The split between different types of work depends on the deal and who’s busy at the moment, but usually coverage analysts run operating models for clients because we’re more familiar with the industry.

The rest of the work and other models may go to the M&A team, with input from us – especially on industry-specific issues such as identifying appropriate buyers.

If I were working on a high-yield debt offering, I would still be responsible for the operating model but the Leveraged Finance team would come up with the optimal pro-forma cap structure and do the analysis on credit ratios and other debt-specific modeling (ex: pricing).

If the assignment were even more specialized – for example, a restructuring deal – then the restructuring team might manage the entire process with the coverage team helping with tasks like finding buyers and summarizing the state of the market.

Q: That makes sense – I think the division of labor is dependent on the bank as well, but those are some good guidelines for anyone who’s wondering about this.

Is there anything specific to valuation or deals with aerospace and defense companies that you don’t see elsewhere?

A: The mechanics of models are similar – a merger model is a merger model, after all – but there are specific metrics and drivers for aerospace and defense companies that you don’t see elsewhere.

For example, for airlines you use metrics like revenue passenger carried, revenue passenger miles, and available seat miles.

When you’re making projections for aerospace companies you use drivers like the order backlog, capacity utilization, and the airline sector’s overall health (N.B: measured in the number of planes in the air, or how many are kept parked).

Defense companies rely on government contracts – which have long lead times – and the defense budget, so you need to factor those into any models you create.

You also have to be up on the industry and the latest trends to figure out which specific areas within companies might have room for growth (e.g. persistent intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance) and which might see decreased spending (e.g. C-17 Globemaster).

I would highly recommend the equity research report “Deciphering Defense – An Industry Primer” by Ronald J. Epstein, Bank of America Merrill Lynch, September 2009 if you’re interested in learning more about the sector.

Another quality guide is this BoA-ML report on the Commercial Aerospace sector from April 2009.

A few further resources and example pitch books for the industry:

Lifestyle, Pay & Recruiting

Q: What’s your average day like? Do you work more, less, or the same as analysts in other groups?

A: Hours are comparable to other industry groups – in other words, long, and definitely longer than more markets-based groups such as ECM or sales & trading.

I’m not sure how it compares to M&A or other product groups, but once you get to a certain number of hours per week you can’t sense much of a difference.

I usually start each day by reading the news and looking for details of companies in my industry “exploring strategic alternatives” (banker-speak for “looking to buy or sell”).

I also pay attention to developments such as management changes, government contract awards, and inventions and patents within the set of companies I cover.

After that, it really depends on what’s going on at the moment – I might spend a lot of time on an operating model for a company if we’re working on a deal, or my day might consist of working with other groups and providing input on pitches or deals they’re working on.

Q: Right, that seems consistent with what you mentioned before about how coverage groups operate.

I also get a lot of questions on how bonuses compare in different groups. At the junior levels I would assume that most product and industry groups are very similar – is this accurate?

A: Yes.

Q: Finally, how do you actually get placed in an industry group? Do they focus more on lateral hiring or recruiting straight out of universities / business schools?

A: Most of the time analysts are recruited directly from the undergraduate training pool (and associates from the MBA training pool).

Recently, with the market picking up, many firms have been hiring lateral analysts with experience in investment banking as well [N.B.: As of mid-2010].

Q: Great, thanks for your time.

A: No problem – enjoyed speaking.

M&I - Brian

About the Author

Brian DeChesare is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and Breaking Into Wall Street. In his spare time, he enjoys memorizing obscure Excel functions, editing resumes, obsessing over TV shows, traveling like a drug dealer, and defeating Sauron.

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by Brian DeChesare Comments (157)

It’s Not Rocket Science: Why You Should Stop Learning Partial Differential Equations If You Want to Break Into Investment Banking

It's Not Rocket Science: Why You Should Stop Learning Partial Differential Equations If You Want to Break Into Investment Banking

“Hi, I was wondering which class I should take to break into investment banking: Advanced Partial Differential Equations or Quantum Field Theory. Do you think it will ruin my future if I only learn up through Multivariable Calculus?”

No, I don’t make this stuff up: I get emails like this all the time.

Sometimes they’re from undergraduates, sometimes they’re from MBA students, and sometimes they’re from the occasional MD or PhD candidate.

But my answer is always the same:

It doesn’t matter.

You don’t do “real” math in investment banking, so stop worrying about it and spend your time more wisely.

Got Obsession?

So why is there such an obsession with learning advanced math / winning the Nobel Prize before you start working as an investment banking analyst or associate?

You’re Good at Math

If you’re interested in finance to begin with, there’s a good chance that you’re already good at math and have taken a lot of math classes. You’ve either:

  1. Been interested in finance for a long time and have taken a lot of finance/math classes; or
  2. You were an engineer or science-type who got bored of that and wanted to move into business.

Yes, there are bankers with liberal arts backgrounds as well but bankers in categories #1 and #2 outnumber them.

We Like to Blame Other People

It’s the same reason we believe so strongly in the myth of the “career path.”

If you can get into finance simply by calling hundreds of people and being very aggressive with networking, failure to break in would reflect poorly on you.

But if you couldn’t break in because you didn’t have that class on quantum physics, then you have the perfect alibi.

We Like to Stay In Our Comfort Zone

Getting out there, talking to people, and meeting them in-person is uncomfortable. It’s way easier just to sit at home watching TV…

…or to sit at home completing your math homework.

Going through dozens of advanced math classes also gives us the illusion of progress without actually requiring us to make any progress. It’s part of the 80% you should be eliminating.

The Truth About Math

There are 3 points you need to know about math in investment banking:

  1. You don’t use it that much.
  2. The math you do use is very simple. As in, arithmetic.
  3. Therefore, you don’t have to be a math genius – but you do have to be good with numbers.

Say What?

You don’t use math that much because you don’t do that much modeling work, even in “technical” groups like M&A.

Think “administrative work,” emailing people and updating lists of information – just look at a few days in the life of an investment banker if you don’t believe me.

And when you do use math, 90% of the time you’re working with existing templates or simple models rather than creating everything from scratch.

Yes, it’s cool to be able to say you can create a hyper-advanced LBO model from a blank spreadsheet, but in the real world no one has time for that – so you use templates.

But What About Modeling?!!

Even when you are working with financial models, none of the math is complex.

There’s addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division… and occasionally built-in Excel functions like IRR, Mean, and Median.

You never use calculus or differential equations or even geometry / trigonometry. Just arithmetic and sometimes algebra.

Think about all the basic formulas in accounting: Revenue – Expenses = Profit. Revenue – Cost of Goods Sold = Gross Profit… and so on.

Notice how there are no integrals anywhere in those equations.

So Why Do You Still Need to Be Good With Numbers?

If the math is so simple, why do you need to be good with numbers at all?

Although the individual mathematical operations are simple, you can end up working with huge spreadsheets where a lot of calculations are linked together.

1 + 1 = 2 is simple, but now let’s say you have 100 similar calculations, and the input of each one is linked to the output of another calculation.

That’s exactly what you run into in investment banking, and it gets tricky to trace everything – especially when it’s someone else’s model.

Exceptions & Other Fields

In other fields of finance the math can get more advanced.

The main example is trading, where some funds may use advanced algorithms and higher-level math to make trading decisions – so, if you’re making the sales & trading vs investment banking decision, and you’re leaning toward trading, advanced math classes might be helpful.

For hedge funds, it depends on what strategy the fund uses: long-term fundamental investing has less math than algorithmic trading.

Also in trading, mental math (17 * 35) is more important because you need to make quick decisions.

Outside of those, the math in other industries like private wealth management is as simple as it is banking.

So What Should You Do About It?

Stop taking advanced math classes – especially if they hurt your GPA.

Bankers look at the overall difficulty of your major but they don’t go in and analyze every single class – a 3.8 GPA with easier classes is much better than a 3.3 GPA with “tough” classes.

Plus, taking such advanced classes takes away from time you could be spending on internships, school-year internships, networking, and activities.

When reading your resume, bankers pay attention to the school you attended, your internships, and your GPA – not individual classes.

Beyond Undergraduate

Despite rumors to the contrary, sometimes you have to do work to get through business school.

At this level, taking “more advanced” classes is an even worse use of time because:

  1. At the MBA-level networking is even more important.
  2. Hardly any “math-intensive” finance positions hire directly from business schools – you don’t need an MBA to be a top trader. You just need to make a lot of money.

So if you’re at this stage and you’re serious about breaking into investment banking, forget about advanced statistics / financial math classes and do the bare minimum.

Summer School?

I also get a lot of questions on whether “finance summer school” or taking classes during the summer instead of an internship is worth it, and the answer is always “No, unless you have no better options.”

Bankers don’t like taking risks, and they always prefer to hire someone with investment banking internship experience over a newbie.

What About Your PhD / MD?

Bankers tend to look down on advanced degree holders.

They want people who can burn the midnight oil and who are aggressive enough to find ways to make or save money – and they don’t think that advanced degree holders fall into this category.

Getting these degrees is far more difficult than anything you do in banking, but most bankers don’t like to acknowledge this.

So if you’re already deep into one of these programs, cut your losses and get out early or take the path of least resistance if you’re too far in to drop out now.

Improve Your Communication Skills

If you really want to improve your skills before you start working, forget about math and focus on your writing and speaking skills.

There are tons of analysts who are good at math, but few can describe what they did and how it helped their bank make money in plain English.

And if you want to move up, you need to interact with senior bankers a lot – so getting to the point without rambling or stuttering is essential.

And If You Really Want to Improve Your Math Skills…

If you’re still set on improving your skills, forget about classes and have a friend in the industry send you a complex model with many different tabs.

Then, try to “reverse engineer” it and figure out what the key drivers are and how they affect the output.

Creating a model yourself is relatively easy because you control everything – the real challenge is looking at someone else’s model and figuring out how it works in the first place and how to modify it.

So spend some time playing around with complex models and get used to the process of tracing individual formulas and outputs.

And please, no more partial differential equations.

M&I - Brian

About the Author

Brian DeChesare is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and Breaking Into Wall Street. In his spare time, he enjoys memorizing obscure Excel functions, editing resumes, obsessing over TV shows, traveling like a drug dealer, and defeating Sauron.

Break Into Investment Banking

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