Stuff Investment Bankers Don’t Like: The CFA, Your Activities, Your Ph.D., and More
I’ve noticed a disturbing trend lately: many readers have the wrong idea of what will help them with investment banking recruiting.
Thinking that they need to do “something” at the last minute to boost their chances of getting into the industry, they come up with all sorts of “creative” – yet marginally effective – ideas.
Read on to see exactly what not to do to get noticed in recruiting.
1. The CFA
I must get more comments about the CFA than any other topic (yes, even you, models and bottles).
There are hundreds of reasons the CFA (any level) is a waste of time for getting into investment banking (note those highlighted words carefully, and read to the end of these points before leaving an angry comment), but here are the top 3:
a. It’s not necessary for advancement and the majority of investment bankers don’t even have it.
If you want to be a portfolio manager, go ahead… but for the rest of us it’s marginally helpful at best.
b. Studying for the exam requires an obscene amount of time – almost 1,000 hours according to the website.
Think about how much networking you could do in that same amount of time: let’s assume 900 hours of study time for the CFA (300 hours per level).
Assuming you can plan and conduct 1 informational interview in 1 hour total, that’s nine hundred new contacts.
Which do you think will be more useful: a single line at the bottom of your resume, or almost 1,000 people who can help you get interviews?
c. There’s almost no correlation between the CFA and what you actually do as an investment banking or private equity Analyst / Associate.
Last time I checked, the CFA curriculum did not cover administrative work, due diligence, pitch books, and the financial modeling specific to banking.
Please, no more email or comments on the CFA. Use those 900 hours and do some networking, learn another language, or go on a trip around the world – any of those would be more helpful for getting into finance.
Clarifications to the Statements Above: In some situations and geographies the CFA can be useful – for a full discussion, please read this newsletter article on the pros and cons and when you should think about the CFA.
The reason why I made such strong statements above is this: most comments and questions I get on the CFA are coming from people with low grades at lesser-known schools with no experience who think that the CFA will magically get them into Goldman Sachs investment banking.
It won’t.
It may help, and it is certainly more useful in other fields such as equity research, portfolio management, and (some) hedge funds, but it will not “replace” low grades or limited work experience.
Here’s more on degrees and certifications in investment banking.
2. Your Activities
“But wait,” you say, “I thought it was really important to be ‘interesting’ in interviews?”
It is – but bankers pick resumes mostly based on work experience and whether or not they know you.
Now if you’ve done something truly impressive – like starting a non-profit that built 1,000 schools in Southeast Asia – that can actually help you.
But let’s be honest: many activities are just resume padders, and having 1 name or 50 names won’t make a difference if that’s the case.
If you have absolutely NO finance experience and nothing even related to business on your resume, then you can play up your activities – but otherwise avoid it.
3. That Investment Club You Started
If you can’t get a real internship, start an investment club or student-managed fund instead, right?
Actually, this logic is not terrible: it’s certainly more helpful than the CFA, and in the absence of real business experience, it looks better than being a lifeguard or working at a restaurant.
But no student-run investment club is going to put you on par with the guy who did 2 summers at Morgan Stanley.
You should only do this if you can’t find a part-time, school-year, or summer business-related internship of any kind.
4. Your “Internship” Waiting Tables
Truthfully, being an investment banking analyst is much more similar to being a waiter than it is to most “real” internships.
You need to multi-task, you’re always running around, you have to deal with annoying clients all day, and you have to do a ton of grunt work.
But bankers themselves don’t see it that way and won’t acknowledge this type of work experience as equal to a “real” internship.
You don’t want to write about any of this unless you have nothing else to point to.
5. Bloomberg / FRM / CPA / Other Meaningless Certifications
Similar to the CFA, most other certifications are also useless – although on the up-side they don’t waste nearly as many hours as the CFA.
Some of these certifications – like the FRM and CPA – have nothing to do with investment banking, while others – like Bloomberg – are somewhat relevant but useless compared to, say, calling 5 alumni.
Remember, the only part at the bottom of your resume that most people even read is what’s in the “Interests” section.
Bored office workers always want to meet interesting people, but no one wants to meet well-certified people.
6. The GMAT
While getting a decent GMAT score is important for business school admissions, it’s less relevant for getting into investment banking at the MBA-level. And it’s even less relevant at the undergraduate level.
If you had to take it for business school anyway and earned a good score, you can list it if you want – but if you don’t have room, cut it.
But if you haven’t had to take it for any reason yet, don’t do it in hopes of getting a good score and using that to propel your way into finance: your time is better spent elsewhere.
7. Non-Native-Speaker-Level Language Skills
Ok, this one is not 100% true.
It helps to have some language ability, even if you’re not native speaker-level – something is better than nothing.
But unless you’re at an extremely high level (i.e. you could watch a university-level lecture on economics, understand everything, and then write a brilliant 10-page paper about it in that language), you can’t leverage language abilities to move to offices in other countries – there’s too much reading and writing required.
There are some roles – like trading and certain back and middle-office positions – that don’t necessarily require language mastery. But if you’re reading this site, you’re probably more interested in areas like investment banking and private equity, both of which require a lot of communication and reading/writing.
8. Your Ph.D.
After the CFA, this might be my #2 question received via email:
“Will a Ph.D. help me get in? Do banks care about my quantum physics skills? What if I’m the next Isaac Newton?”
First off, if you’re smart enough to write the next Principia, you should not be in investment banking because you’re going to get a lot dumber. Go write a book about your discoveries and win a Nobel Prize.
The math required in finance is VERY simple. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division if you get really fancy.
Most of what you do in M&A is administrative: sending emails, keeping track of different buyers, and updating Word documents.
So the only reason to get a higher degree is if you want better access to recruiting channels at a more prestigious school – and even then, stop at the Master’s level rather than doing unnecessary work.
9. Financial Modeling Courses
“Wait a minute, you just RELEASED your own financial modeling course, and now you’re saying that banks don’t care whether or not we’ve gone through them? Are you crazy?”
No, I’m just being honest.
The *knowledge* you gain from these courses is very helpful, especially if you don’t have a finance background or you want to prepare before you start working.
But listing the course itself on your resume – no matter which one it is, or whether you invest $100 or $10,000 – doesn’t guarantee you anything.
The bottom-line is that if you want to prepare for interviews and for work itself, these can be a good option – but they fail as mere resume padders.
Wait, So What DO They Care About?
Easy:
- Work Experience
- Educational Background (more applicable if you’re a student)
- How many people you know at their firm and how much they like you (networking)
But there’s a problem if you’re trying to use any of these to boost your chances at the last minute: each one takes years or months of effort – you can’t do it overnight.
But It’s the Last Minute and I Really Need Something!
It’s pretty much impossible to add anything substantial if you only have a week left before interviews begin – but if you have a few months, here are 2 quick examples of how you can make some impressive-sounding last-minute additions:
- Study abroad program / some kind of international experience. (doesn’t need to be 3-4 months – something shorter is fine)
- Summer, night, or part-time program at a well-known school.
Any type of study abroad program is also great to talk about in interviews, especially if it’s to a completely random country or region. Going on a trek to Antarctica stands out more than going to Paris.
Doing some type part-time or summer program at a brand-name school is more helpful if you’re not going to a well-known school right now – anyone scanning your resume quickly will say, “Aha, I recognize that name.”
Last-Minute Standout?
Of course, none of these tactics will make up for a lack of solid work experience or lack of contacts in the industry.
But if you’re struggling to stand out with only a few months left, you don’t have much of a choice – you have to take what you can get.
Break Into Investment Banking
Free Access to Exclusive Content for Members Only!
Sign up for The Banker Blueprint today and enjoy:
- Free Report: 37-page guide with the action plan you need to break into investment banking - how to tell your story, network, craft a winning resume, and dominate your interviews.
- Exclusive emailed bonus material.
- Free Banker Blueprint newsletter with more in-depth advice.
- Unlimited access to all articles, videos, and advice - and free updates whenever new content is added to the site.
Great site.
I’m not sure if you’re entertaining any new questions on this but here goes. I recently graduated from a prestigious law school in Canada, and am thinking about switching to ibanking. I have a business undergrad, but did not entertain IB at that point. I have no finance work experience, but am good at networking. I was told through networking that it might be helpful to do Level 1 CFA just to show that I’m serious about finance and that I have the quant skills. What’s your take on that? And if it’s a waste of time, what do you recommend I do to show that I’m serious?
And do you think there’s not a hope in hell for someone of my background?
CFA Level I is arguably helpful if you have a law background so in that case it might make sense. Plenty of lawyers get into IB but usually after doing corporate law first.
Hey,
Long time reader thanks for all you do. This is somewhat related to the above comment; I am a Paralegal in an M&A at a major corporate firm on Wall St (all front page wsj type work) and I took this job to see whether or not I would want to go to law school, with in the event I didn’t go on to B-School or into finance.
Past internships are finance related, though in brokerage not banking. My current M&A job is a 2 year gig but I already know law isn’t for me and its time to start compiling an excel file of the bankers who I work on the transactions with as potential networking contacts. I also have an offer as a corporate banking analyst at a big 4 bank. Should I take the corp banking gig, do the credit emersion to boost my relevant analytical skills and then wait a couple years to purse investment banking? Or, Do you think this M&A law side experience could be helpful in flipping my career to the investment banking side right off the bat?
Any advice I REALLY appreciate. Thanks again!
I would speak to a couple of your contacts now and see what they say. Law experience can be helpful but as a paralegal it’s less helpful than as a lawyer so the experience may not carry over as well. I would probably lean toward taking the corporate banking position but run it by some of your contacts first.
Hi Brian-Just read this article and found the GMAT information. I’m from a non-target school with 3.6 cumulative/3.8 major (this is a little low I know ’cause most non-target students I know get 3.8s). I plan to take the GMAT to sort of make up for that GPA, but after reading this I’m pretty hesitant. My priority is still networking hard, but in your opinion will taking it help my case at all?
Thanks a lot.
The GMAT would help but don’t spend a lot of time on it because your grades are fine to begin with. If you can do it in 20-30 hours or less it might be worthwhile.
Hi brian,what r ur views on the following M&A professional certifications. Are they worth it? better than CFA for aspiring M&A professional??
Certified Merger and Acquisition Advisor (CM&AA) from The Alliance of Merger & Acquisition Advisors® (AM&AA)
http://www.amaaonline.org/
Certified Merger and Acquisition Professional (CMAP) from The Middle Market Investment Banking Association (MMIBA)
http://www.mmiba.com/
Those are more useless than the CFA because they’re not at all widely recognized
I totally disagree, the Certified Merger and Acquisition Advisor (CM&AA)is taught by industry leaders and pinpoints true M&A skills.
That may be true, but is it widely recognized? It might get you a bit of added benefit, but no banker would look at it and say, “Aha! Now he’s on par with the guy from Goldman Sachs investment banking!”
Gold
I am currently in penultimate year doing Actuarial Science & Finance double majors with CGPA of 3.6. My problem is I am trying to push my GPA over 3.8 but my actuarial courses (which are pretty tough) are pressuring my GPA. Should I drop Actuarial Science & focus on Finance (single major) while graduating with over 3.8 and one semester ahead? In addition, I have secured an IB internship which I can shift it from summer to winter if I want to, while currently securing another one (most likely in S&T) in summer, provided I convert to Finance single major and graduate one semester earlier.
One reason for still holding onto Actuarial Science is to indicate my quantitative ability which will be handy when applying to S&T internships/jobs. Everyone is doing Finance, so I thought maybe an Actuarial Science major will stand out from my rest even though I know bankers don’t give undue respect to actuarial grads/actuaries.
Look forward to seeking your opinions. Thanks.
3.6 vs. 3.8 doesn’t make a huge difference. But getting another internship is valuable so maybe switch to a single major due to that. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-major/
What level of quantitative ability do I need to demonstrate for a job in S&T, say trading and structuring? Is a finance degree with course work in derivatives and portfolio management sufficient? Will S&T employers value my actuarial major?
That should be fine. S&T doesn’t care about actuarial majors too much.
Thanks a lot for your replies!
Hi Brian,
I am a student at one of the leading engineering schools(top 5) in India. The traditional procedure is followed at my school for recruitment ( assessment centre, case studies …) .I am from an engineering background but want to start my career in Investment Banking and some 5-6 of the top 10 IBs come here for recruitment. Is CFA really helpful here in India to get me the job. If not, can u suggest any other certifications/courses. I hold some key positions at the university level and have a gpa of 7.5 on a scale of 10.
P.S: I am a penultimate year student.
Thank you.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-india/
I would think a Ph. D in a science (read math) discipline could get you places these days in S & T, especially in the realm of algorithmic trading? While its not M&A, it is another side of ibanking isnt it?
For quants, yes, it may be helpful but most people reading are going for IB/PE
Hi. I have done a 2-month PE summer internship + 10 month internship in M&A at a BB bracket. I would like to move to trading and, given that there’s no longer prop trading at BB banks, I would like to find a job at a HF. I am using your PE CV template, and I have a question regarding “certifications & training”. I have no CFA (given that I only did an internship), and have no idea of what can be added in there. I also haven’t attended any analyst 2 month training in NY, as I was only an intern. Would you mention something like “Morgan Stanley Investment Banking University” in skills and certifications? (I dialed in on most of their sessions during my 10 month internship). Thanks!
Just leave it off if you don’t have anything
Hi,
Your articles and guide “Breaking into Wall Street Guide” is most helpful. I currently work for the public sector on a financial inclusion project right and have had a non-traditional career for the past five years in microfinance in developing countries.
I recently got into London Business School and considering attending because I want to switch careers into finance because I want to move from project management into a more analytical career such as finance. Do you think it makes sense for me from a non-traditional background to try to break into finance with an MBA?
Yes, that makes sense
Hi,
I am a junior student in Economics with the CGPA of 3.2. Could you please tell me if it’s worth to go to school for another year to minor in finance and boost my GPA ?
if i dont stay in school for another year for the finanace minor, how can i show that i actually know some finance in the resume? (this was the reason i was going to study for CFA, but your article changed my thought.)
and what would be the best way to study finance???
(i pretty much know nothing about it now)
If you can get it up to 3.4-3.5 then yes. Otherwise think about summer or extension classes to boost your grades, an internship is the best way to prove you know something about finance.
are you recommending another year more because of CGPA than minor in finance!?
also, what do you think if i take a leave of absence from school to find and do an internship that’s not in the summer?
thank you very much again !
-M33-
Yes it’s more about the GPA. Taking a leave of absence may work, but you’d be more limited to internships at smaller banks that don’t do exclusively summer recruiting.
Hi Brian,
I’m currently studying in Melbourne, but I have had the chance to talk several investment bankers in Asia and they all recommended me to take the CFA examination (and I’m studying a commerce and engineering double degree, so it’s not like I’m not from a finance background).
So, I’m just wondering, is your view on the CFA examinations from an American recruiter point of view?
And would you happen to know much about the Australian IB recruitment process?
Thanks for your help !!!
There’s some truth to the CFA being more useful in other markets, but it’s mostly emerging markets (India, South Africa, etc.) where that happens. From what I understand of the Australian IB recruiting process (http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-australia-edition/), it’s more important to have a finance background / major to begin with.
Hi,
I’m a 19 years old University of Melbourne Graduate majoring in Marketing & Supply Chain Management. I spoke three languages ( Indonesian, English, Mandarin) and now after half year of job hunting, I just changed my mind and would like to pursue an IB position. I haven’t have any significant work experience in big4 or finance field at all. However, I have list of extracurricular to prove that I’m very well-rounded and used to won Math competitions.
Do you think will the recruiter hire people like me?
Internships would help… I think in Australia its a bit different and depends more on your university and grades though and work experience does not matter as much at the undergrad level
Well, I’m looking to apply to Singapore. You said internship, would they still hire me because in one of your topics you said internship is only available for students. I did graduate quite early, would you recommend me putting my age on my resume or not? Will they usually take it as an asset or liabilities? Knowing that I dont have finance background either. Thank’s Brian!
Yes usually internships are only for students. You can list your age (I think that’s more common in SG? Kind of forget right now) but most places will still not go for it unless they’re small and really need someone at the moment.
Brian another question for you!
After coming out of your two year i-banking analyst program, it is clearly essential to distinguish yourself from others coming from BB and MM banks into private equity, wouldn’t you consider an additional distinction, for instance, a CPA, another advantage over someone with similar qualifications and no CPA?
Thank you Brian,
It might make a marginal difference, yes. But having an interesting experience (work, study abroad, volunteer work, group) would make a bigger difference and set you apart more than a certification.
Hey,
I’m going to have to largely disagree with this piece on the usefulness of the CFA. I worked in IB at one of the largest banks in the world and as an analyst found that it did a lot for me. Yes, it is a lot of work and yes there are some things in the curriculum you won’t ever need (more a reflection of that fact that it covers a broad range of asset classes and in reality, most ppl only tend to specialise in one) but I found it was a good investment and here’s why, (in no particular order):
1) BROWNIE POINTS – It impressed my Director that I had the initiative to find out about and to pursue the CFA. Set me apart from the other graduates and passing each level earned me a lot of good will and increased the team’s confidence in my abilities. In fact, they agreed to finance all 3 levels!
2) NETWORK – When I first started people were skeptical, but by Levels 2 and 3, I had analysts/associates from different desks being referred to me (sometimes by their managers) so I could coach them and tell them what to expect. I thought it was a great way to be visible and build contacts at the Bank.
3) TALKING POINTS – I worked in various Trading and then Sales roles, and I found that having the CFA made it easier to get better quality information from the research analysts (because now you can ask them more in depth questions about their assumptions, calculations etc because, well, it’s part of what you’ve been studying!) and to anticipate your clients’ concerns, quite a number of whom will also be familiar with the CFA. Sure, you learn these things by experience too, but the CFA was my substitute for that experience, particularly at the early stages. It set me on the right path and got me asking the right questions sooner.
4) NEGOTIATION TOOL – I’ve never been in an interview where the interviewer didn’t make a positive comment about my completing the CFA and I don’t just mean HR, I mean interviews with members of the team too! It’s widely recognised and largely respected, and can also be used as part of your a justification for a higher salary :-)
Now I’m in complete agreement with building your CV through extra-curricular activities and the rest of it, but I think doing the CFA doesn’t hurt either. If you’re smart enough to get into IB, it probably won’t take you the 900 hours they say it takes and the great thing is that it builds on itself! Level 1′s the hardest, Level 2′s the same basic concepts but a little more technically involved and Level 3, well, that’s where it’s the most fun because you get to “apply” it all! The CFA was a great investment for me, maybe not directly in the way I first imagined, but a good decision none the less.
I don’t really want to get into a debate with you because this topic has been covered extensively elsewhere on the site – yes I agree that sometimes it can be valuable but for 99% of the people who ask me about it (low GPA, unknown school, no networking) it is not.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/cfa-investment-banking/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/degrees-certifications/
HI Brian,
Something interesting, Goldman Sach in Australia acctually pays for you to complete CFA as you are working.
Hence, do you think it would help in Australia if I have completed some CFAs before I apply for positions?
I still don’t think it’s a great use of time vs. getting internships, networking, and earning high grades. But it may be more useful in regions such as Australia (if you do a search here for “CFA” you will find further discussions on the topic).
3 things that stand out after browsing the article/comments: Travl. CFA. Australia.
So how about studying for CFA while traveling down under?? Although we know your general opinion of CFA, think this would be feasible or just take any enjoyment out of travel?
Just browsed a bunch of posts after reading this one – great site!
I think it would take the fun out of travel, plus you could end up spending a lot of time studying for the exam and then not even pass it… making it useless. I would not bother at all if you want to work in the US or UK or most other developed markets.
Hello Brian
First off, kudos to you on this website. It’s been extremely informative about a sector with minimum public information.
I am looking to transition in to the industry myself and wanted your opinion on my profile. I will be matriculating an MBA program this Fall (Top 30, regionally prominent in the South). Although the school is non-target for IB, the finance curriculum is comprehensive and around 5 student do end in BB-IB’s every year. Just wanted you opinion on how I would be perceived as a candidate. Here’s my profile:
Intl. student, Engineering Undergrad, Work experience consists of sales and 4.5 years of entrepreneurship. I’ll try to get in atleast a 1 month IB internship (not necessarily BB) BEFORE my program commences and will extensively network/cold-call to land a summer internship for 2012. Thanks!
I think you’d be competitive but their main objection would be “Why leave your own business to become a paid monkey at a bank?” So you have to spin it a way that doesn’t sound like your venture failed and that’s what caused the switch.
I totally disagree with your point of view towards the disadvantages of the CFA. You might base on the American banks’ recruiter’s viewpoint upon the CFA. However, I rarely could find out a US bank which does not appreciate a CFA holding candidate (I’m studying in Los Angeles right now). If you think CA is no longer desired by the bankers, please point out a specific statistics to prove it (ie. # of banking job-requirements does not take CFA as a plus for candidates). Other thing, please remember CFA is from the US. How come such an American academic institution can be established and then go on the opposite way to the US labor market ? They’re not killing themselves as what you’re talking about.
I don’t feel like getting into an argument over the CFA again as this article was written years ago and this point has been debated to death on this site and elsewhere. If you want to read more about it, see: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/cfa-investment-banking/
The general verdict is that CFA = not useful for M&A but it is in ER, portfolio management, maybe a few others.
I graduated from Berkeley engineering with an average 3.0 GPA. Since I was an international student it was exceptionally hard for me to get a job there during the crisis in august 2009. After that I am doing my MBA from a very well ranked, but would qualify for what you call an “Unknown” school in India, which is further just known for its operations and technology courses rather than for finance. I managed to get an internship at Citibank in the operations and technology group. I have been looking for online courses and certifications to increase my knowledge of finance so that I can show an interest in finance on my resume and thought that CFA would be a great way to do it. You say that CFA is not really that helpful for getting into IB. What could be my best move here? A masters in Finance? A second MBA from a top-tier school? How should I go about trying to get an interview with an bank? Banks like JP Morgan, HSBC, Citi, Standard Chartered and Deutsche do come to our campus but they only offer operations profiles. How can I go about on my own creating an IB opportunity for myself?
If you already have an MBA you can’t do too much beyond networking…. maybe try to get a 2nd degree from a better-known school but that’s extremely expensive, so alumni networking is your best bet
Hi Brian,
This website is great, thanks!! I wanted to get your advice on getting into BB M&A after 2 years at a Corporate Bank, when up against several other with IB experience already? So far my CV hasnt even been rejected; I just dont even get a response – even though I’ve had alot of good people read it (unfortunately none of these have good IB contacts to assist the situation further!)
Thanks!
You really need a pre-MBA internship and a few more years of work experience to make that work; 3-5 is preferred. See the MBA articles here: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/exit-opps
Hi Brain,
I read your article and it cleared the sky some what for me. I did my MBA in Finance,from India(from not so recognized B-school) so I could easily relate to what ever you wrote. After doing my MBA I joined a counsultancy who do Corporate Restructuring small and Medium size companies and once a while for large companies as well. I’m a fresher and just being put to the team for doing all activities that are required in restructuring. Its a bit difficult for me to understand the language at this level, but I always wanted to become an I-banker. So is my decision for getting into consultancy right and what else should I pursue on sidelines to actually compete with CA’s and big time industry experts.
Please help me on this.
Thanks
There are some tips on India here: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-india/
You’ve mentioned in the Banker Blueprint that the CFA is ideal for someone interested in Portfolio Management. Have you covered an article on PM? What is the pay like? And bonuses?…also is there an ‘Analyst’ position start off with etc….
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/hedge-funds-institutional-asset-management/
You touched on this in your article. Given no direct finance experience and an undergraduate degree in economics, would a university Certificate program in Finance/Investments yield any benefit in the workplace?
Much thanks.
No. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/degrees-certifications/
I have a BA in Economics and Finance plus an MBA concentration Finance. I haven’t been lucky to find a Finance Job. I’m currently in a Forecasting type Job but would love to break into Finance type Jobs and i don’t mind whether it’s Investements coz thats part of Finance.
Is worth it to take CFA or better to try something else. What do you reccomend i do to increase my chances into the Finace world?
See everything under Recruiting, the CFA is only helpful for specific roles… the key is networking
Hi Brian,
Read your blog and found it really helpful. I just need a piece of advice from you. I am currently working as an IT auditor for one of the big 4 accounting firms and have graduated in MIS from the London School of Economics with a Merit classification (gpa b/w 3.6 – 3.8). I have been working for the firm for past 2 years and now want to switch my career to Finance. I have no background in Finance and wanted to ask you about the best way to switch my career path.
1. CFA
See the accounting –> IB article
Hi Brian,
Read your blog and found it really helpful. I just need a piece of advice from you. I am currently working as an IT auditor for one of the big 4 accounting firms and have graduated in MIS from the London School of Economics with a Merit classification (gpa b/w 3.6 – 3.8). I have been working for the firm for past 2 years and now want to switch my career to Finance. I have no background in Finance and wanted to ask you about the best way to switch my career path.
Thanks!
See the accounting –> IB article http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/breaking-into-investment-banking-accountant/
So I am going to be applying for IBanking roles when I go to LSE this fall for a MSc Finance, but am kind of worried about my GMAT score (660, very high quant though).
I’ve noticed that some banks ask for this information in the online application forms (you apply online in the UK).
Do you think it would be a good idea to retake and shoot for a 700+? Would I get dinged just for my mediocre GMAT score?
For MSc you shouldn’t need a GMAT score so just leave it out. Otherwise if you do need it, yes I would retake it.
When I was a portfolio accountant (back office role), I spoke with a Chief Investment Officer & Executive Vice President in the Global Treasury Division at a Bulge Bracket Asset Management Co and he advised me to pursue the CFA.
For asset management and related fields yes, but for IB/PE no, do a search on this site for “CFA”
I interviewed for a Structured Products Analyst role in the Global Markets entity/Department at a Bulge Bracket Asset Manager. They said they were looking for candidates pursing or have passed the CFA and or graduating from an Ivy League school (i.e. Harvard).
I know you are probably going to reply saying that Asset Management is for the CFA. However isn’t structured products part of investment banking?…during the interview topics like deal origination, structured transactions, underwriting, securitization, structured deals were brought up.
Now I know exactly what is the un-educated person.
Hi there, thanks for posting this.
I want to ask abbout the math you need to do the job of banker. I always here that you have to be good in math and so on but you say its just simple basics one needs to make it…
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-math/
Hi Brian,
I was graduated from the top university in Indonesia majoring Computer Science (my Bachelor Degree, got it in Jan 2005) and a-not-very-well-known university in South Korea majoring Economics in International Commerce and Economics (my Master Degree, got it in Aug 2011).
Currently I’m working for a leading Korean bank in Global Business Department. I have been working here for 5 years now but my company’s goal and my career’s goal doesn’t seem match. I was rotated to several departments (I was in On the Job Training for 1.5 years, branch for 2 years, Credit Review Department for 6 months) which gave me a broad experience but not specialized. For an extra, I’m also active in Toastmasters (I mentioned this as it might help).
If I want to break into Investment Banking especially in US, I wonder what the first step I should take. I don’t have background in Finance (at school) and I was not graduated from the US university.
So my questions are:
1. Is it possible for me to get hired in US?
2. Should I go back to school for MBA or Master in Finance in US or just keep applying for jobs in Investment Banking?
3. Please give me any other suggestions you would like.
Thank you in advance.
1. Yes but it’s extremely tough if you need a work visa.
2. An MSF would probably help.
3. To really have a good shot you need to be there in-person to network and meet with recruiters… so an MSF program at a top school would be a good first step.
My next question is, would you please explain me more about why you suggest me to take a MSF program instead of MBA? My consideration is I already have a Master Degree (although it isn’t in US)..
Thanks again for your respond.
MBA requires 3-5 years of work experience so MSF is usually better in terms of time and expense and gaining access to recruiters without that much experience.
Actually I see you have around 5 years experience so an MBA might actually make sense in that case (lost track of the comment thread since there’s no easy to view it all internally). But I would only bother if you can get into top programs.
Right.. You made the point about the top program. Thanks a lot for your response.
Hi Brain,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Inv Banking. As somebody who is trying to get into Inv. Banking your blog is very helpful.
I am currently about to start my MBA from a top school in U.S. Prior to this, I was working as a Buss. Analyst in a major IB in US but was on the front office IT side (Business Analyst hence was exposed to a lot of Financial products etc.. but no hardcore Technology technical stuff).
I want to get an opinion from you as to what I should do to maximize my chances of landing up a good internship next summer (for which the recruitment starts this Dec)? I read a lot of articles on your website today and know that CFA is something that you don’t suggest for IB. What else should I do which would show my interest in Banking and help me get shortlisted for an interview. Also I am an international student.
Thanks in advance.
Network like a ninja. Learn the modeling skills we teach on BIWS. Practise your pitch on why you want to be in IB and what you can do to add value. Look into which banks can sponsor your visa — this is important since not all banks like to sponsor int’l students. Attend as many on campus recruitment events as you can
That’s the best answer by far! Thanks for contribtiung.
Hi Brian
I was graduated from Uppsala University in Sweden Master degree majoring Computer Science
Currently I’m working for a leading Financial Brokerage Firm in Qatar. I have been working here for 4 years not in IT but in the filed of Operations. I am looking to increase my skills in the filed of Financial Brokerage Services and Investment Banking and make a step forward but I don’t have a solid finance background as my study in IT.
Does CFA right choice for me to improve my career?
Please give me any other suggestions you would like.
Thank you in advance.
CFA wld work for buyside/research related roles. I’d suggest you to take it if you are interested in those fields and in investing.
I would also network extensively w bankers in your area to see how your skills experience and background can add value to them
Hi,
I was a Political Science major and graduated from an Ivy League school. However, I got a job at a public finance firm and now I am in love with the field. However, I am torn between an MBA and a Masters in Finance.
Are both degrees on an equal level playing field?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/mba-investment-banking/
I’d say an MBA (top tier one) is more relevant.
For me, being an Investment Banker in the past and now a hedge fund manager in Asia. I agree some points of yours, but I disagree your whole attitude to deny modelling or financial knowledge from CFA on the iBank and PE! Certainly many of the topics are useful and could be applied to Private Equity and Investment Banking! Yes, it is not definitely designed for Investment banking or PE and expensive somehow (which I really disagreed the high price), but it doesn’t mean it is totally useless in those area! Many peers of mine are highly recognizing this designation and efforts. I think your point is just like denying Philosophy subjects are totally not useful for the Law study? Pitchbook or Case study are all the requirements and communication skills you gathered from your general study and knowledge from different academic disciplines and business working experience. For example, if you don’t know how to look-through the hidden profit or business model of a company, you still won’t having a nice pitchbook. Pitchbook is not difficult at all if you really want to be an iBanker, it is just a trivial daily job. Finally, I would tell it just depend on how you value and use the CFA and Master knowledge in your real working experience! And, your stance is something like Don’t get CFA or Master degrees, but BUY your products, if you want to get into iBank or PE. I really know what kinds of investment banker you are! Be fair dude, I would tell those people who really have great interest of being investment bankers or PE, you should try to study and work hard both ways. And you should always know “What you are doing right now!” But I do agree is that Personal networking is always the GEM in Business world! However, knowledge will never fade in your mind!
Johnson, while I might not see eye to eye with you on certain things, I appreciate your input –of course knowledge is valuable! Please don’t take the below or our articles personally.
I do have to clarify that we never tried to “manipulate” people to buy our products by telling people that a CFA or Masters degree is not valuable. I don’t even see any “inverse relationship” between our product and a masters/CFA degree. As a matter of fact, our products are not mutually exclusive from a degree.
Such degrees’ value differ according to different people’s perspective. We expressed our opinions on our website based on the interviews we conducted, our experience, and our conversations with people in the industry. You can disagree with us on our perspective re the usefulness of a CFA/masters, but please don’t make an assumption that we are trying to “manipulate” our readers to buy our products. As a matter of fact, the quality of our products speaks for itself and our customers are very happy– there is no use for us to bash a degree to promote our products.
Hi..I am from an engineering background with final year in college in India…Will my appearing fir CFA Level I be helpful or atleast an addition to get into I- Banking?
Not really; an MBA maybe more useful. Check these out – http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/getting-a-finance-job-from-engineering/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/cfa-investment-banking/
Hey, just a quick Q. JP Morgan apparently recruits at my school (8 interns last year 5IB & 5IB Risk) which is a non target business undergrad. They often email me about events coming up, and they’re doing a “J.P. Morgan: Investment Bank Valuation Workshop” (according to e-mail subject. Do you know anything about these? How should they be handled, IE like an info session? Thanks!
Havent heard of the valuation workshop but I’d imagine its a great way to network.
Hey man, I liked the way you stated the facts; you’re a frank and a direct person and i like that.
First off, I am 25 years old middle eastern (lebanese) guy who got a masters degree in finance from one of the best lebanese universities (I was top of class). I know, lebanese universities or not like those of the US, UK and Europe so that’s why i m asking you if it s too late to join top banks like Goldman, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and chase and others in the Gulfe, Europe.
I am a CFA level 3 candidate (ok, it’s not the right choice for IB as you wrote above), but still, do you think I can join these banks as an equity researcher , trader …?
I have two years of exp in a lebanese bank as a financial controller, and as a credit risk management. I had the opportunity to work as a trainee in big 4 as auditor …
what do you think is the right choice ?
Regards,
Hey,
I wish to enter the field of asset management.After starting my career as an asset manager,can I grow to the role of a portfolio manager?Is a portfolio manager the pinnacle position in the asset management world?
Depends on your performance. You can say so
Hello there,
Thanks a lot for your website.
I’m a final year student at one of the three best business schools in France.
Last year, I have interviewed for internship positions at Goldman sachs, Morgan stanley and JP morgan. I got three rejections.
Do they keep track of the rejections? are my chances over? I am planning to apply for a full-time position, is it a waste of time?
Thank you
No I don’t think they do but some people who reviewed your app and are still working at the firm might remember you. I don’t think your chances are over. Figure out why you didn’t get in and work around your weakness. Apply again full-time. I’d also look at other banks too
I’m trying to break in to I-Banking or PE. I have a Math degree from an unknown state university and have worked the past 4 years as a broker. I’ve worked for all rather reputable companies (on broker terms). I am preparing for an MBA, I initially naively believed this would be a 1 year process, come to find that it is a 2-3 year process. I’m working hard to get into top 10 schools hoping that this will propel me in the right direction. I do have good contacts in the industry, cousin works PE at GS, friends work I-Banking at boutiques and BBs. I don’t care about the time, I’m young I have time to earn it. My question is 1. Does broker experience translate for IBers? 2. If I can’t get into top 10 schools, should I reevaluate?
1. Not necessarily but depends on how you pitch your story and your experience
2. Yes.
And why don’t you use your network & break in?
I would love to use my network and I have kept in touch with everybody in IBanking, unfortunately I was a bit of a partier in college and came away with a gpa a bit lower than 3.0. I’m not getting a lot of eager participants to throw my name in the hat right now. Especially since I am at the 4-5 year experience mark where they aren’t sure whether to put me in an Analyst or Associate role etc. So I guess the best route that I can foresee is MBA.
Also about reevaluating the MBA if outside of top 10, I’m runing into a lot of B-schools out of top 10 that are advertising that a large portion of their class went to Finance, I know they broadly categorize finance and so some of them may even be bank tellers right now for all I know, but isn’t there still a good chance I could get into I-banking if I’m outside of top ten? Say Carnegie Mellon for example.
CMU is good. I wouldn’t say it is a school that banks would make a point to recruit at but I’d still say give it a shot because it can improve your “credentials”
I am a junior applying for banking internships and the deadlines are all around December-January. I plan on taking Corporate Finance next semester. Can I put it under relevant course work on my current resume? Thanks for your recommendation.
Yes
I am concerned about my situation and I really need your point of view.
I am a non native speaker and I earned a bachelor degree in math overseas in africa. now as I wanted to become a cfa I started a new undergrad degree in finance because I don’t really know the differents step I am suppose to follow.
please help me with your advice so that I won’t waist my time. by the way I am 23 years old.
thanks
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/get-a-banking-job/
Hi have done BA Economics (CGPA 2.8)in the top university in Uganda in 2007. Have graduated with a Merit in MBA from Sunderland University (UK). Have completed my MSc in Finance and Accounting awarded by University of Wales in Cardiff (UWIC)- Attended through college in London. My first semester mark was fine with distinction in Corporate Finance moduel. 2 semester my performance wasn’t good as I was stressed cause I was on the verge of loosing my part time job (as international student this is very very important). Am currently doing work placement with one of uk accounting firm.
My question, regards to my academic performance do you think I can be admitted to the Top 4 investment bank in the UK. What advice do you have for me thanks in advance. (Am currently 28 years old)
I’d suggest you to obtain an internship w an ibank first. Network intensively. Don’t think your university is a target; not quite sure if your academic performance alone will allow you to be admitted to top 4 ibank
Hi. I just moved to Boston.I use to live in Geneva,Switzerland for last 9yrs. Completed my Masters in Finance over there. Had done an internship at Hottinger Bank. Worked for a finance company before for 2 years in Switzerland but now the company doesn’t exist anymore. I have a total of 4 degrees – 2 in engineering (Undergrad) and 2 Masters 1 in finance and 1 in engineering. I speak French and Italian plus I am an Indian by origin which helps me know 4 more major Indian languages.
I m 31yrs old. And now when I m looking for a job in Boston…The companies which I m scanning to apply for a job ask for a CFA Preferred and so on.
For me, its a big change and I really don’t know what to look for.Is my age a problem? Am I over qualified? Pls Help
Hi Brian,
Any advise for someone looking to break into IB sales or trading side for a developed asian market like Singapore?
What are the criteria that is needed for a fresh grad with a basic bachelor degree in business to get in?
Thanks!
Passion for markets, good grades, good attitude, strong network, knowledge of finance, etc
Are there any articles on how you can break in through commercial/corporate banking? Most results in searches are for CPAs, PE, MBA and hedge funds.
We don’t have any as of yet but I will let the team know of your suggestion!
What about the CAIA? They seem to cover PE, Hedge Funds, Commodities and Real estate. Also there’s a lot of focus on due diligence. Won’t it be helpful in investment banking?
That might be helpful if you want to work in the alternative assets industry or even Prime Brokerage but I don’t know if it is useful for IBD roles
Hi! I did a summer internship at this very small ibank with like 3 bankers. most of what i did was administrative though it was in banking related things like spreading comps. should i write this on my resume? i am afraid the bankers may think i know a bunch of stuff and then proceed to ask me obscure questions. with knowing just the basics, would it be better to write it on the resume and be tested on things that i may not know or not write it so that i get easier questions? thanks!
Yes and only write about things you know. If in doubt, either educate yourself or don’t write it down