Sales & Trading vs. Investment Banking, Part 1 – Recruiting
“So, how much food do traders eat?”
“Can you really make $10 million instantly if you’re a star trader?”
“Can I write about my gambling addiction and how much money I made with poker on my trading resume?”
You’re about to learn the answers to all of those and more, in this 2-part podcast series on Sales & Trading vs. Investment Banking.
Since I know close to nothing about trading personally, this one is an “interview” with Jerry, who does know a lot about trading – having done a trading internship, worked full-time at a bulge bracket bank and then started his own prop trading firm.
What You’ll Learn In This 40-Minute Interview
- What you need to succeed in sales vs. trading vs. investment banking, and why none of them require “rocket science”-level math
- What to do if you don’t have a pedigree, and why trading might be a good option for you
- Networking tactics for both fields and the best time to cold-call a trader
- The 3 most important points to highlight on your sales & trading resume, and how to write about your poker hobby (addiction?)
- Interviews, telling your “story,” and how pitching a stock differs in sales vs. trading interviews
Listen to the interview right here:
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- Download the MP3 [40 Minutes | 19 MB]
- Download the Text Transcript [20 Pages | PDF]
Introduction
- 1:15: Intro to Jerry and his background
- 1:45: Skills required for trading, psychology, and why you still don’t need to be a rocket scientist to succeed
- 4:30: Who succeeds in banking vs. trading and the math required
Recruiting
- 5:30: Recruiting at a bank vs. prop trading firm
- 7:40: Recruiting for sales
- 8:09: What to do with no real finance experience – and why exams and certifications aren’t the answer
- 10:30: How to break in from unusual backgrounds and if you’re already out of school
- 12:10: From programmer to prop trader?
Asia vs. the US and Language Requirements
- 12:55: Recruiting in Asia vs. the US and elsewhere
- 14:00: Language requirements in banking vs. sales vs. trading and what to do if you don’t know the local language
Networking and the Best Time to Call a Trader
- 16:50: How to network like a ninja in both fields
- 18:00: The best time to cold-call a trader (hint: not when he’s trading, eating, or abusing interns)
- 19:23: How to approach traders differently from bankers, and why “business talk” might be a better strategy
Why the CFA Is Still Useless
- 21:05: Are there any useful exams for breaking in? Nope, sorry, please try again…
Sales & Trading Resumes
- 23:05: Sales & Trading resumes and which skills are not as important to highlight
- 24:53: The 3 most important skills to focus on in your trading resume, and what to do if you don’t have them
- 26:16: Should you write about your gambling addiction? What about knitting yarn or extreme sports?
All About Interviews
- 27:45: How banking interviews differ from trading interviews
- 30:22: How much corporate finance / valuation knowledge do you need for S&T interviews?
- 30:48: How “fit” questions are different
- 32:05: Why and how you need to tell your “story” differently and how to talk about your future plans in trading interviews
- 34:34: Can you prepare for S&T interviews?
- 35:50: How to pitch a stock and technical vs. fundamental analysis
- 37:15: How sales interviews differ from trading interviews, and how you should pitch a stock differently
Sales & Trading vs. Investment Banking Podcast Series:
- Part 1 – Recruiting (Interviews, Networking, Resumes)
- Part 2 – Lifestyle (Day in the Life, Co-Workers, Exit Opps, Pay)
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Well done and very informative. I will say though, and perhaps it’s because I follow the website fairly regularly, that it was a bit long winded. Most of the other interviews have been rather short and to the point whereas this one seemingly had much more you then Jerry in the transcript. Again perhaps it’s because I follow fairly regularly but there was a lot of reiterating things about IB which I understand is neccesary to compare and contrast but I liked how in previous interviews you just provided a link to previous articles rather then summarizing an entire previous post in seemingly every question.
Again though I liked the interview and I’m looking forward to part II.
You will probably like the next part more as it’s less banking and more about issues like how much you get paid in trading, models and bottles, co-workers, etc.
Thank you for this, very informative! I’d say 162 cubes.
You double-counted – see the explanation here:
http://mathforum.org/pom/project11.95.html
Isnt the answer 7 * 12 = 84?
Yup – see the explanation here:
http://mathforum.org/pom/project11.95.html
Great, can I have a job at Citadel now please? =P
All jokes side, I really liked the idea of listening to an mp3 rather than reading through a blog article. Just downloaded this on my BlackBerry and listened on the way to work… Too easy!
Yup that’s why we did it… easier for us to talk than to write as well, though editing and transcribing take time (this was recorded about a month ago).
Good start on preparing for trading interviews but not nearly enough. This wasn’t a presentation on trading interviews specifically I realize, but you should have mentioned a lot more things that come up commonly.
A stock pitch is ok but you also need to prepare for market questions in general for all major markets. Examples:
-would you long or short oil & gas sector right now?
-long or short EUR vs USD?
-long or short gold?
Also, know levels and recent performance for all major equity indicies, commodities markets and currency pairs. Know the yield curve shape and slope (e.g. 2-10yr spread).
Just the tip of the iceberg…
This was not intended to be a “Sales & Trading Interview Guide” – just an overview of what to expect and how they differ from IBD interviews.
It’s impossible to cover all these questions in a 40-minute podcast, especially when we address other topics beyond just interviews.
Should we release something more comprehensive on S&T interviews, you’ll be able to read all about it right here.
Very insightful. Answered a lot of questions.
Not to mention how funny this Jerry guy is :)
Oh just wait for the next one…
when’s it coming out?
Already here this comment was from a long time ago http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-vs-investment-banking-part-2-lifestyle/
I THOUGHT JERRY WAS IN KOREA
IS HE BACK IN THE STATES ALREADY?
Moving back in May for school
Loving the S&T stuff. Listened to this in the bath tub.
Your a great guy and this is truely a unique resource.
Thank you.
Man I wish they HAD bath tubs in Asia…
Great~~I love this MP3 thing~~lots about sales and trading. but how about structuring? it sounds interesting since they do a little bit of trading as well as a little bit of sales. Are we talking about structuring in second part or later in some other articles?
Thanks
No structuring in this one or the next one but I’ll see if we can interview someone else on that
so on your conference with jerry, you guys briefly went over when is the best time to cold call or have a conference with traders (like after the market and not during the market hours).
what would you say the best time to cold call investment bankers? i always wanted to know. thanks.m
I would try either early morning or early evening, either before or after the gatekeepers / secretaries arrive so you can actually get through.
Otherwise, go for early afternoon right after they’ve come back from possibly eating lunch (yes bankers eat sometimes).
Thanks for introducing a little rtaionlaity into this debate.
Getting a trader to spare his/her time is not all that difficult. Make sure you attempt an e-mail first to figure out their availability and always send a resume if you think it will peak their interest, that is you honestly have something to offer. Had a 45 minute phone conversation with a guy at Morgan Stanley institutional equity S&T during market hours, I’m not from a target school, and cold called after I sent my resume a week before. Confidence and respectfulness is key, always have your talking points and you should be good.
Thanks for the tips. Though I think it might be a little different depending on which group the trader is in, some are really busy during market hours, some less so.
Just to add,
Best to be very much to the point when speaking with traders. Keep chit chat and bonding type conversations to a minimum. Traders are direct and appreciate directness; they’ll lose interest very fast if you’re long winded.
What do you do if a firm wants you to come in for a final round for summer analyst position at a large IB in NY during spring break? I already have travel plans for the week to Mexico…will it be a stretch to ask for the following week? Will I look like a moron if I look like a cast member of jersey shore after being in Mexico for a week?
Uh, cancel your vacation unless you already have another better offer lined up… you can take a vacation anytime, but good opportunities are rare.
Hey Brian, I recently got an offer as an equity research analyst (internship) and as an intern for Monitoring and Reporting Dept at local asset management firm. Neither of them are i-banking internship… I am more inclined to equity research position than asset management internship, since i get to write my own report and it might lead to paid internship after a month or so, while asset management internship will be about entering data into spreadsheet etc.
what do you recommend and is any of above two help (of course better than nothing) when it comes to ibanking? thanks
Equity research is more relevant to banking so i would agree with you
Brian,
Thanks for the very informative interview- looking forward to Part II.
Question/Concern: Do you have any advice for answering the interview question of “Why do you want to leave your current position/company?”.
There’s some terrible stuff going on in the firm I’m currently at but discussing the injustices I have faced in my current job as a reason for seeking a new job will likely not bode well with the interviewer.
Aside from wanting to leave my current job because of all the willful malfeasance going on, I want the job I applied for because I want something more challenging, with greater responsibilities, and where I can learn more. But these reasons, however true they are for me, are rather generic.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
If theres sensitive information I would just give the generic reasons instead – you never want to badmouth a former employer. Just mention the good points and don’t say anything about your specific situation at your current company.
Not to start a flame war but why is it that S&T analysts always have lower gpa’s and pedigree than IBD analysts? I know some 3.4 lehigh kids at citi S&T and this kind of thing is the norm, along with nyu CAS at MS S&T.
however, IBD anywhere even at jefferies seems to have 3.8 gpa kids.
As mentioned in the podcast, pedigree / GPA matters less in S&T because all they care about is how much money you can make. In the real world no one gives a crap about 3.4 vs. 3.8, but $5 million vs. $10 million is huge.
Very interesting site and I don’t usually write comments however this has to be said – Traders need to be very smart, smarter then your average ibanking analyst, I work currently at a BB as an analyst and know I am not smart enough to be a trader despite having excellent grades which by the way does not necessarily mean I am that smart I just worked very hard! I also had help from my parent because they sent me to a good school where the syllabus was practically fed to me so not too hard to obtain good grades. Traders I know tend be those kids at school that that had huge potential but found academia boring or even came from a less privileged background but are as sharp as you like. I would like to be a trader as I found ibanking not as exciting or stimulating as I originally led to believe. However I know I would not make it as a trader.
Been reading quite a few “recruitment literature” on the field and some research as well, still think that this is very insightful! Thanks alot!
Any idea what to expect in the “Sales and Trading interview guide”? :)
Probably not in the near-term – currently very busy with modeling videos and other projects. I also think a S&T interview guide is way harder to write than a banking/PE one, but it’s something to consider in the future.
I’m in college (top 10 US university) and want to start my own hedge fund. This will, of course, require years of experience and lots connections, but it will also require millions of dollars in capital. What field would you recommend heading into to get that kind of capital?
Um, either finance or entrepreneurship… you need some kind of background in investing to raise tens of billions of dollars for your own fund. Not even the richest people in the world can put that kind of money to use in a single fund.
Hi Jerry,
You mentioned that in a trading interview to stress how you are in it for the long run. Would it be ill-advised to mention that you would like to transition to a portfolio management type role, and is that type of position something completely different than what a trader would be doing?
I would not say that because it’s quite a bit different and closer to wealth management than sales & trading.
Dear Brian and Jerry,
Since you said that trading interviewers ask math contest like questions, would it be a good idea to put my state math contest awards from high school on my resume? If so, could I put it under my honors section on my education information and clearly state that the award is from high school? I do not have a separate high school education section on my resume.
Do not list anything from high school
I’m preparing for the S&T summer analyst interview season. Are there any good books or other resources to look at to prepare?
Look at brainteaser books, maybe the Vault guides, also the WSO Technical Guide.
Wealth management/portfolio advisor to S&T. Tough transition? Understand alote of bankers, brokers and even traders have moved into pwc for slower pase of life but what about going the other way?
Not sure on that one – it’s tough but probably easier than going to IB.
Hi – matriculating from a top business school background is engineer and private banking experience. Wanted to understand if sales roles within sales and trading is well sought after MBA from target school?
What are the compensation levels expected in Asia / London?
Appreciate feedback.
MBA hires are rare for sales & trading but sometimes they happen http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-promotions/
Compensation is about the same anywhere in the world and is heavily dependent on how much money you make for the firm.
Hi,
How would you compare the number of total employees in S&T and IBD? I realize S&T is the main revenue driver (a few times more than IBD) for most bulge brackets. Why would banks and many students/people still put so much focus on IBD?
Not sure about exact employee #s but S&T makes fewer new hires compared to IB because there’s not as much need and because they want more experienced people most of the time. S&T might actually have more employees overall, but fewer in revenue-generating positions vs. IB.
Then, can someone say S&T generates more revenue per person than IBD (at least 2X)? If so, does this imply that one can potentially get a bigger bonus in S&T?
Thanks again!
I don’t think that’s true because S&T also has a lot more overhead needed to support it (trade settlement, clearing, more IT people, etc.). Sometimes bonuses there are are higher, but only for the very top people. These days you will make far more at a hedge fund than at a bank, at a bank you might be lucky to get 3-5% of your P&L which is not very much.
Brian and Jerry,
I am so glad I was able to find these two podcasts! Being a freshman who does not have a firm grasp on these industries, it was extremely helpful!
I am currently a freshman at the business school at Georgia Tech. While it is growing quickly and becoming widely recognized it is still not a target school, and because of this I was hoping to get some advice.
I am trying to secure an internship this coming summer in either IB, S&T, or some kind of money/asset management or hedge fund industry. I have used LinkedIn to connect with some alumni, but have not been too successful with that. The main opportunity I have found that is my dream to get is the freshman and sophomore program at J.P. Morgan:
http://careers.jpmorgan.com/student/jpmorgan/careers/us/undgergrad/intern
As it says on the site, there are 4 different areas you can choose to pursue (if you get the internship). I would not have a problem in any of them; my main concern is getting the internship.
Now I was able to find some Tech alumni at J.P. Morgan and I am in contact with them. One was nice enough to look at and help me edit my resume to make it more competitive. I took summer classes and just finished my fall semester, and I currently have a 4.0 GPA. Along with that, having a Scottrade account, and being a sector analyst in the Student Foundation Investments Committee, is there any advice you can give me?
Thanks again and keep up the good work!
Andrew
Not really just keep networking and pushing alumni to help… at this stage you have no work experience so can’t do much there and it’s more about whether they like you / you’re persistent.
Hi there,
Your website is fantastic, so thank you very helpful. Can you recommend an equally impressive and helpful website for someone wanting to go in to S&T rather than M&A?
Thanks
Unfortunately, no, but there are quite a few S&T articles on this site if you look under Groups & Regions at the top.
Thanks I think I’ve read pretty much all them now, they really are great. My one gripe would be that they seem to concentrate almost exclusively on trading rather than sales. Do you know of any online resources with particularly good information on Sales positions? Also, do you have a list of London boutiques on your site, I couldn’t track one down. Thanks again.
Don’t know of anything on sales specifically. For boutique lists see the FAQ.
hi Brian, the mp3 was very informative. Thank you very much for that. i am a junior who will be entering the recruiting process in Manhattan very shortly. I am interested in going into Sales & Trading, which is why i listened to the podcast. Because I am interested in S&T, I tried looking for Jerry’s contacts but could not find it but I believe you will be able to answer it just as well.In this interview between you and Jerry, Jerry keeps encouraging the audience to study “the market” by reading books and paper and whatnot. what resources do you recommend to learn about the current market? any specific books that will help me ace my S&T interview? and also, there are so many books that are based on brain teasers in such interviews, do you also recommend a specific book that you found helpful? and lastly, what would you say is the GPA cutoff to go into the S&T department of an investment bank?
Just the WSJ and Financial Times should be sufficient… for books I’m not sure but just look at the top recommended brainteaser ones on Amazon and that should be fine. Usually you need at least a 3.5 GPA to have a good shot.
Another thing. In this podcast, Jerry mentions multiple times to read books on trading to expand our knowledge on the market and trading, as there are exceptional books on trading. are there any that you recommend or do you know which books Jerry is referring to? Thanks in advance.
I don’t know offhand; Jerry is busy with b-school at the moment so he hasn’t been on here lately but I would start here: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/good-books-to-read-to-prep-for-st-interviews
Hello, How could I get in touch with Jerry and his prop trading firm?
He sold his prop trading firm in 2009 and is currently at business school so he has limited time at the moment.
I am a Liberal Arts major and have landed a Summer Internship at a US BB in Sales and Trading (rotational). One thing that has worried me is my lack of maths (which is high-school level at best). At the same time, some of the roles in Sales and Trading, or at least the interesting ones, seem very quanty.
Additionally, I have also been considering whether S&T is for me or whether I would be more suited to M&A. How common is it to go from S&T SA to IBD Full-time?
It can be done – there’s a tutorial here: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-to-investment-banking/
Thanks M&A for the prompt reply.
With regards to my first point. How would I go about preparing for the summer internship in S&T considering my liberal arts background?
At a recent meeting, desks were very keen on the qunaty finance/economics guys.
Any help would be much appreciated!
For S&T, review brain teasers, math questions, probability questions, etc. – there are lots of resources on Amazon for that and there may be a few interview guides on the subject. You just have to show that you can do math even if you’re not a finance genius.
No I meant after getting through the interview and getting an offer. I find the numerical tests easy enough during the application process and get through brainteasers but I guess preparing technically for the summer internship would help me in comparison to my peers who cover some of the material in their economics or finance related degrees.
Sorry for not making it clear.
Yes I would just read some books about trading, try trading yourself, etc. and keep following the markets closely not much hard prep to do in S&T since you will just shadow the people there rather than doing anything yourself
Hi Brian, Great blog.
I have 2 years equity research experience (some part time during college, and some FT after graduation) at a buy side fund (very small), and 2 years experience in metals and mining (in industry). I have an offer for equity research analyst in metals and mining from a BB, however I want to move to commodities trading with the long run view of starting a fund (not a commodities fund). Should I take the BB offer and try to move to trading asap whilst networking within the bank, or should I be trying for physical commodities trading positions (poorly paid) then make the move to an IB on a commods desk?
My current employer has a physicals desk I could try to move to
Probably better to start off doing commodities trading and then to move to a bank, from equity research it’s more common to move to hedge funds.
Are there any websites that you would recommend that are similar to M&I, but with a Trading focus?
Unfortunately no, not that I know of… a few scattered things but nothing comprehensive
Hi Brian
What is rate sales in investment banking?
Regards
Boris
Not sure would have to research it further
I am not exactly sure why most people view sales and traders as more introverted. Most of the traders and all salesman I have met were even more outgoing than the bankers. Fabrice Tourre (the guy with the CDOs) seems like an extrovert even though he was a trader. Is the impression of most traders and salesman really introverts?
Sales – no but traders – yes because these days trading is getting more and more math-based and therefore attracting smarter people. It’s nothing like the 80s or 90s where you have tall fratty white guys screaming at other people, these days some traders don’t even talk to anyone else aside from a few co-workers during the day.
… Vice President of Global Capital Markets… This is effing great! Get my trade booked and fetch me a coffee, kid.
I’m not currently studying towards a technical degree, but a Bachelor in Business Administration, would this be less popular with recruiters? Would it make a difference to aim for a different market e.g. equity instead of FICC?
It doesn’t matter too much but a technical degree would help more with S&T and you might have a better profile for sales rather than trading with something like business.
You said before not to list anything from high school, but what about national Math contests and the IMO (International Math Olympiad)? Traders at Jane Street apparently really like seeing those on resumes.
I think HS experience is dated though being able to demonstrate strong mathematical skills is desired for trading roles. If you want to list such experience, list them at bottom of your resume. However, if the experience is over 3 years old, I’m not quite sure if it will be relevant
In you opinion which is more competitive to get into as straight out of undergrad, S&T or IB?
Depends on your skills and traits – both are not easy but varies ac to different people
Do you get vacation time in S&T?
Yes!
Are there S&T opportunities on the west coast? Specifically LA. And do positions on the west coast differ from their east coast counterparts?
I’ve got invited to MS S&T assessment center. It involves 3 interviews, a presentation, a group exercise and a test.
I would be really grateful if you gave a little bit more additional information on this i.e. What can I expect? Maybe, anyone has already participated in Morgan Stanley’ assessment center.
I am particularly interested in a presentation and a group exercise.
Thanks.
Readers might be able to give you better suggestions
Guys,
If anyone has already participated in MS assessment center (S&T), I would be really grateful if you provided a little bit of information how did it go etc.
See the comment to this article for some tips on S&T ACs: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/emea-recruitment-assessment-centers/
I’ve got invited to MS S&T assessment center. It involves 3 interviews, a presentation, a group exercise and a test.
I would be really grateful if you gave a little bit more additional information on this i.e. What can I expect? Maybe, anyone has already participated in Morgan Stanley’ assessment center.
I am particularly interested in a presentation and a group exercise.
Thanks.
Hi,
If there is question asking why: Why ST versus Banking? Can I say because trading is more quantitative and a faster-paced environment and I thrive in that kind of environment?
What if the interviewer follow up with: equity research is also quantitative?
What is the best way to answer why S T?
Thank you so much,
Yes.
ER is quantitative but it is definitely “slower” (in terms of pace) and “less stressful” than trading
Why S&T – your passion for the markets. Ideally you already trade your own portfolio
Hi Nicole,
Thank you so much.
I also apply for ER at some other banks as well. So if when they ask why ER, could I say i prefer following companies than the market? and do in-depth analysis and really understand the business?
Would that be a good answer?
Thanks so much.
Sure – if you are interviewing for equity research (industry specific roles) not macro/credit research
Hello Brian!
Could you shed me some light on how FX Sales role might be different from the Fixed Income or Equity Derivatives Sales roles?
I am thinking about sales in both FX spot and FX options.
Thanks!
What you’ll be selling is very different – which products interest you more? Fixed income/Equity Derivs I believe can be more quantitative though I may be wrong. Readers may be able to give you a better idea than the above
I love this Podcast!
Where can I find more of the same genre?
Thanks
You want more Podcast?
Hey,
Just wanted to say, that was a great article. It has really helped me figure out what I have to do to land a job in trading.
I had a couple questions. First, am I at a disadvantage for going to a non-target (I am, however, a triple major and in the honors program)? Second, would I be turned down if I went to a different school’s career fair, which may include a BB’s trading division? And thirdly, if I cannot break into trading after graduation, would it be possible to do a MFE and then try again?
Yes, being in a target can help. I don’t know if you would be turned down but you have nothing to lose so I’d still try to attend the career fair at the different school. Re your third question please refer to http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
Great interview!
I have a quick question. I am currently a rising sophomore at a non-target, in a city that has a very weak “financial district”. There are a couple VCs and about 2 boutique banks and a couple other finance-related firms, but nothing S&T-related. I was wondering how an internship at a VC firm would be regarded for S&T recruiting. Would they not like it (since its something closer to IB), not care, or think of it in a positive manner?
Thanks
I think interviewers might find your experience interesting though I don’t think it is related to S&T so they’d probably not care that much. You’ll have to demonstrate your knowledge of and passion for the markets
Hello,
Does investment bank has prop trading?
Thanks,
Yes, banks still have prop trading but it is greatly diminished after the financial crisis and many traders have moved onto smaller firms or hedge funds.
Hi, I wanted to know which is the better/more preferred/more likely route into working in a hedge fund: through becoming an investment banker analyst/associate or trading (in an investment bank)?
I’d say trading. However it varies case by case
Hi M&I,
I noticed that you publish bonus statistics for entry level positions in Investment Banking. Do you have information on salaries and bonuses for S&T analysts at BB’s? I’m specifically looking for salary info for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year S&T analysts. Thanks.
No we don’t, but the base in BB for S&T and IBD analysts should be on similar ballpark. Bonuses will be different though
Are the bonuses tiered (i.e. top-tier>middle-tier>low-tier)? How high are they compared to IB bonuses?
Also, is it true that S&T is harder to get into at a BB than IB due to the Dodd-Frank regulations?
Not really, but different banks/groups have different bonuses
Depends on how good you are and your level.
Perhaps, but IBD is going through tough times too
Hey,
I have an interview coming up for a Summer Analyst position with the S&T group at a bulge bracket bank. Though I know that it is for the trader position & not sales, I do not know what specific trading desk they are interviewing me for. In case they ask me in the interview if I prefer Equity Trading or Fixed Income trading, I don’t have any preference. I was wondering if you could give a comparison of the two.
Thanks,
YP
In fact, I don’t even know what the criteria should be if I need to choose a particular trading desk over another. Do you have any suggestions ?
Please see these articles:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/non-target-sales-trading-recruiting/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/what-you-do-in-fixed-income-sales-trading/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-equity-trading/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-interview-fit-questions/ (Tells you what to say for that type of question)