What You Actually Do In Sales & Trading, Part 2: Equity Trading
While there are plenty of day-in-the-life and week-in-the-life stories detailing what you do in investment banking, there’s surprisingly little information on sales & trading.
We started to fix that problem by looking at what you do in fixed income – besides bankrupting your firm and causing the economy to spiral into a bottomless abyss.
This article will continue that thread by telling you all about equities, the second major area within trading.
Once again, Jerry’s the expert and the author here, so direct all questions to him.
Quick Recap
Trading is divided into groups depending on whether or not you have clients or you’re making your own decisions – agency trading and prop trading, and then the gray area of flow trading in between.
And then it’s also divided according to what you’re trading – stocks, bonds, currencies, or derivatives of those.
Originally Fixed Income was supposed to mean only securities that involved debt, but these days FX and commodities traders are often put under the umbrella of “Fixed Income” as well inside investment banks.
Similarly, “equities” originally just meant trading stocks of companies, but these days it has expanded to cover a couple different areas.
So let’s delve in and see what you do in equity trading besides gambling, eating junk food, and abusing interns.
Agency Trading
This is the most basic type of equity trading: you work at a sell-side financial institution, like a large investment bank, and you execute orders for clients throughout the day.
You don’t make decisions on what or how much to buy – you just take what the client wants and you make it happen.
Why do they need to go through an investment bank just to buy or sell stocks? Couldn’t they just use E*TRADE?
No – because of the size of the transactions.
Let’s say that a mutual fund wants to buy 1 million shares of Microsoft – if that order were placed immediately, it would be too big for the market to absorb and it would disrupt the share price by quite a bit if they attempted to buy all 1 million shares at once.
So it’s your job to divide this into smaller pieces and buy a portion at a certain interval throughout the day, or through another period of time – usually you follow a fixed schedule for buying the stock (e.g. every 20 minutes).
The only thing you control is how to vary the order timing and order routing – if you work in the US you have more control over these variables because of the sheer number of ECNs (electronic communication networks) and dark pools. In other markets you don’t have as many options.
Pros: If you’re interested in trading but you’re not quite ready for more advanced jobs, this could be a good fit to get your foot in the door.
Also, the work hours are much shorter than most other jobs in finance: you might arrive right before the market opens and leave right after it closes; there’s not much analysis to do since you’re not making your own decisions on what to trade.
Cons: The job itself can be boring at times, and you don’t have many exit opportunities. Also, more and more agency traders are being replaced by automated trading algorithms over time.
Proprietary Trading – Plain Vanilla Equity
Plain ol’ stocks. As cool as “synthetic collateralized mezzanine bespoke hybrid exotic derivatives structuring / trading” might sound as a job title, there are still plenty of benefits to being a normal stock trader.
This is the opposite of the agency trading discussed above, because you’re making your own trading decisions and there are no clients.
You don’t have to deal with too many logistical or IT issues that come with trading over-the-counter instruments, and the market liquidity is excellent in developed markets – so you don’t have to worry about not being able to exit your positions.
Bid/ask spreads are small, trading fees are low, and if you make a mistake you can even undo your trade immediately without much damage. (Note: the Obama administration is currently considering implementing a trading tax that may slightly increase the costs of trading)
The only problem is that there are so many market participants that it’s very difficult to find great trading opportunities that everyone else has missed.
Usually you focus on a specific sector and you hold positions for a few days to several weeks; you normally do both micro- and macro-analysis, though there are some traders who ignore the fundamentals and just focus on technical analysis.
You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to do the job: you just need to be good with numbers and a quick decision-maker.
Pros: More interesting work than agency trading; better exit opportunities within trading; potential to make more money than agency traders.
Cons: Hours tend to be longer, especially if you need to do a lot of analysis; you could argue it’s still less “interesting” than trading more exotic securities.
Proprietary Trading – Equity Derivatives
There’s a smorgasbord of derivatives based on equities, but here I’ll just focus on the most basic one: options.
They’re generally riskier than plain vanilla stocks and require more skill to trade: the bid-ask spreads are higher, there’s less liquidity than with stocks, and any one stock could have a few dozen different options with different strike prices and maturities.
There are also more inputs in valuing the options: just as one example, you need to decide what measure of volatility to use, which makes the task considerably more complicated than just valuing the underlying stock.
The coolest part about options is that you can make a LOT of different types of trades.
One common example is a straddle – buying a call option and put option at the same strike price, which gives you a positive payout if the stock moves up or down past a certain amount by maturity.
Even the names themselves sound pretty creative: besides the straddle, you’ve also got the butterfly, the iron condor, and the strangle.
You can also come up with all sorts of crazy payout profiles of your own by combining options and plain vanilla equities.
Leverage is also built into options, so you can easily quadruple the money you put into one stock option: the risk management department would never let you put most of your money into a single option, but even trading smaller amounts of money gives you an adrenaline rush with options.
Even though more math is required, you still don’t need to be the next Isaac Newton to trade derivatives: being able to derive the Black-Scholes equation from Ito’s Lemma isn’t necessary.
However, you do need to understand the Greeks – how an option’s price responds to changes in time, interest rates, volatility, the underlying stock price, and more. You also have to be good with Excel because you need to make more calculations than plain vanilla equity traders.
Pros: More “interesting” and quantitative than plain vanilla equity trading; you can be more creative in devising your own trading strategies.
Cons: Again, hours are longer than agency trading; more quantitative ability is required; as you move up and become more specialized your exit opportunities also narrow.
Algorithmic Trading
No, I’m not talking about the trading robot here (please don’t fall for that scam).
Also known as algo-trading or program trading, in algorithmic trading you don’t actually trade anything yourself: you just program a computer to trade for you based on technical analysis, market volume, or even parsing news headlines.
To do this, stock analysts need to look at historical market patterns, programmers need to implement the system, and everyone else needs to use, monitor, and configure the system.
Sometimes algo-trading is 100% automatic, but it can also be combined with human trading.
Some hedge funds do 100% algo-trading and have performed well – but ever since the financial crisis and the onset of apocalypse in the markets, many previous market patterns stopped holding true.
The result: trading algorithms that had made a lot of money in the past started losing money and thousands of hedge funds and trading firms collapsed.
That’s not to say this is a “bad” field to go into: it’s just that the financial crisis made it necessary for trading algorithms to change their assumptions, and that may mean more challenges for those designing the algorithms.
When people say algo-trading, you would normally think of proprietary algo-trading – but there’s actually agency algo-trading as well, which focuses on how best to execute a client’s trades.
If you’re coming from a highly analytical or IT background, you like working with data, and you want the thrill of huge trading profits without having to stare at charts every second, this could be a good option for you.
Pros: What could be better than machines making money for you when you’re not even there? Also, this is a good option if you’re from a more technical background and you want to move into finance. Since there’s analysis and programming, you can also exit to non-finance jobs more easily.
Cons: Financial crisis will present new challenges for trading algorithms; also, a lot of the work in actually creating the algorithms and sifting through data can be rather tedious.
Exit Opportunities
Not too much is different here vs. fixed income: you either stay in trading at an investment bank, or you move to a hedge fund or prop trading firm.
Or if trading is not for you, you move to a different industry.
If you haven’t been in the field too long then it’s possible to move over to investment banking or others in your bank – but if you start out a hedge fund or prop trading firm, your mobility is more limited.
All of the above is true for the same reason it’s true of fixed income: your skill set is more specialized than, say, an investment banker’s, and on paper most of what you do doesn’t seem relevant to other fields.
Coming Up Next
Sales & Trading vs. Investment Banking and some day-in-the-life stories.
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I’m glad you’re doing more s&t stuff!
I have a few questions;
- Any other websites/blogs similar to yours/management consulted’s with a more s&t focus? In particular, where can I find more about sales?
- What are sales exits ops like?
- Is working in sales (or even trading), getting an MBA then moving into industry realistic (I mean senior, well paying jobs with a realistic shot at c-level future)? What about moving into management consulting?
- As an Australian uni student, am I competitive for NYC/London based grad programs in s&t or even m&a? Is starting in Sydney then internally transferring a better idea?
- here in Australia we have “GS JBWere” as opposed to ‘normal’ GS – if I were to work at GSJBW, would this limit my internal transfer opportunities? Do you have any knowledge as to what the difference is?
Thanks
Not any blogs that I know of for S&T / sales. Sales exit opps – the main one is going to other sales roles, at say a F500 company. Hard to move into more technical finance roles.
You could do sales to MBA to industry, but I don’t know that the MBA is 100% necessary. Easier from sales than from trading. Consulting is possible as well – in that case an MBA probably is necessary.
It would be tough to go to NYC/London initially unless you have great connections – starting locally and transferring is a better idea.
I’m honestly not sure of GS JBWere because I don’t know what the relationship is – maybe some other readers will be able to answer that one.
I will answer the last. No difference. They bought the smaller firm years ago and retained that name.
Hello,
I have a off-topic questions..What are the paths and what do I need if I want to become a hedge fund manager and start my own hedge fund ?? can you give me more details about it?
thanks
i can answer this one for you. there is no “the path” like there is to PE for example. simply you need to be a very succesful prop trader (at IB, prop shop, market maker) and find enough ppl who trust your ability as a trader to invest in you. starting a hedge fund is a bit like starting a business. what if someone asks you “how do i start a business?” – well there is a million ways to do it. i can only tell you the ingredients you need:rich’s ppls financial commitment, amazing trading ability, a winning strategy for your fund. so i guess if i had to give you a “path” it would be like this: establish reputation as trader and develop serious expertise -> develop an investment strategy to start your hedge fund on -> sell yourself and your strategy to rich people -> start hedge fund.
I’d also like to add that there’s many different HF investment strategies. Don’t think that trading is the end-all and be-all of everything. You could do very well in a fundamentals-focused HF if you’ve done IB or ER work, and you could do well in a distressed HF if you’ve done restructuring work. The key is to be very familiar with and excel at your core underlying strategy. Once you establish a reputation as a trader/analyst/whatever you want your strategy to focus on , then yes, you can follow the steps mentioned by PrepNY.
Thanks for both of your comments, so.. in order to become a hedge fund manager. I will have to become very familiar with all kinds of different investment products. Then gain reputation by helping my clients earn alot of money?
Yes. Make a lot of money for yourself and for others and then keep doing it.
What PrepNY said. There’s no “path” – make money, establish a track record, and go out and do it.
howdy
i am interested in sales in HK. i don’t speak chinese. the trading floor in HK is entirely english, but clients may perfer chinese speakers? can i work in sales in HK w/o speaking chinese? what about if i learn an easier SEA language?
Clients may prefer Mandarin speakers for HK if you do Sales there – for Trading language skills matter less. There are no “easy” Asian languages. :)
I can speak Mandarin/Canto and am a native english speaker. Math is not my strongest ability. would I be a good fit for sales? vs. trading?
thanks!
Yes, sales is much better if you’re not good at math.
You serious you dont need to know math?
What Brian meant was if you’re not good at Maths, you’re more suited for sales vs trading given the difference in nature of the two roles. Trading requires people with stronger quantitative skills.
This is a bit unrelated, but do you happen to know anything about F100 Finance Rotationals at top tech companies (Google, Apple..etc) ? Are there any potential “exit opps” ? And would you recommend taking those over big 4 accounting?
I would take them over Big 4 accounting. Basically you get good hours, lower pay than banking, but very difficult to advance. Exit opps would be trying to move back into finance (hard), going to business school, or starting something on your own.
I got into UC Davis MBA and also an offer from boutique investment banking firm as an analyst.
what would you do if you were in my shoe?
Boutique investment bank
Is it just me or are all BB S&T applicants much less qualified than their IBD counterparts? The rounds are all fit and people have 3.0′s to 3.3 gpa’s and a lot from nontargets. Is this normal?
I don’t really think that’s true, though in a poor market S&T may be even less appealing and therefore attract some with lower GPAs.
S&T seems truly not a thing for me.
btw, Don’t you think futures and options should be outlawed?
Outlawed? No.
I have been outta school for about a year now working at a fund as an analyst for the past 5 months. I am really interested in getting into Institutional Fixed Income Sales (particularly MBS)…how would I go about to get a position like that? Do you recommend I gain some analytical knowledge for another 2-3 years then maybe try to pursue Fixed Income Sales thereafter?
I would make the move sooner rather than later – harder to switch the longer you’re out. The usual networking tactics apply – friends, family, co-workers, clients…
Are alot of firms looking to take someone that is pretty fresh out of school (given that I only have about a years worth of experience)? From what it seems, it looks like most people in Institutional Fixed Income Sales (MBS/ABS) are more experienced — wondering how they got their start there.
Yes you generally need more experience (i.e. not fresh out of school) but a year is often enough to break in.
Great article as per usual.
You don’t really cover in depth the actual trade transaction. If you can possibly write an article or fill me in on how a trade happens by giving numbers? Some sort of simulation? Can you also give a situation where the trader loses large amounts of money? Many thanks!
This one’s on the list of possible future article topics.
Great. Looking forward to it!
Yeah that would be great! Also do you have an article where you focus more on the Sales part rather than the Trading part?
Okay please scratch that, I found 2 awesome podcasts on another post here on M&I which had a lot of information on the Sales aspect. Thanks!! :)
Regarding to the visa issue for international students.
If I need a bank sponsor work visa for me, will this requirement become a disadvantage to hurt my chance?
According to your experiences, how much this burden weight under the candidate selection process?
Yes, it will be a disadvantage. It depends on the bank and I don’t know the specifics, but visas are a huge pain in the US and it’s almost easier to go to Canada or another Western country that doesn’t have backward immigration policies.
Listed a question above but I was also going to ask if your going to do an article on Institutional Fixed Income Sales as well?
will add to list
This may have been covered already, but have you ever heard of someone moving from S&T to a research/buy side role? If one wanted to end up on the buy side (PM etc.), would starting out in S&T be a bad idea?
Thanks.
It’s possible, I don’t think starting in S&T is a bad idea necessarily but the transition would be harder than coming from banking for example.
Interesting, thanks. Would your answer change if I am coming out of b-school, rather than undergrad (25 yr old)? That is, is it a less good idea to start in S&T with an intention of moving to the buy-side if I’ve already burned some post-grad years?
It gets harder to transition the more experience you have, so yes, I would say that it is less of a good idea if you’re post-MBA already.
Sounds good, thanks for the advice.
Is it possible for recent grads to get into Institutional Fixed Income Sales (like MBS)? If so how would you recommend doing so and what is the experience like? DO you think its smarter for someone to do more analytical work before going into something like that?
I honestly don’t know about that, but I’ll see if we can do an interview with someone in the field in the future.
How do they choose who gets into sales and who onto trading?
Usually you interview separately for each one.
Do you have any advice for someone with a sales and trading background (cash equity, fx and options) who would like to switch to IB? I am heading to a top 15 for an MBA this summer, which strategy would you recommend me, besides the obvious networking? How can I make my background relevant to IB? Thanks!
There’s an upcoming reader interview on this topic, but basically emphasize long-term, fundamental trading, try to point out your sales/relationship skills as opposed to just trading, and show some evidence of interest in corporate finance / valuation in addition to just trading.
S&T
Can you please tell us a little more about the Sales roles you fulfilled during your rotation. I am interested in getting into institutional sales post-MBA but am interested in what type of skills you’ve gained through working in an S+T rotational program.
do S&T analysts ever move banks? Going to Citi S&T for example and moving to GS S&T?
Yup happens quite a bit
What should one know to get a Algorithmic Trading job :
I study Economics , even though I have Calculus and Statistics I know nothing of programming ….
Programming is essential for algo trading. Computer science, good math/programming/logic skills.
Is a B.s. in computer science good of do i need a pHD?
No, B.S. is enough
I came across your website whilst conducting an independent scientific research which involved the nonlinear problem in financial markets on the complex system theory and the nonlinear dynamics principle, with the data-model-concept-practice issue-oriented reconstruction of the phase space by the high frequency trade data. In practical applications of financial markets, we have repeatedly carried out experimental tests in a fluctuant evolvement, directly simulating and validating the price fluctuations to test the stock XYZ Proprietary and the futures Fuel Oil in China.
I am an undergrad Physics/Mathematics major with C++ experience and a business edge (I dropped out of business school because I felt unchallenged and unhappy). Our current research is opening up many doors of inspiration and I’ve decided to return to the ‘game’ with an edge.
Which areas of iBanking would seem appealing to a candidate with my background? I have little experience and graduate in a year or two?
Maybe find hedge funds or prop trading firms that do something similar to your research.
Thank you so much for the articles.
I’m very interested in proprietary trading firms. Could you add a day in the life of a proprietary trader to your list of future articles?
There’s a day-in-the-life account of a trading intern right here:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-intern-day-in-life/
The main difference is that if you’re not an intern you get to actually make trades rather than just watching.
Hi sorry to bother u with a Q
i kno that now most IBD hire full times only from interns (whether in-house or from other banks ) does trading also follow this trend. which means if u haven got any trading internships then u will not likely to get hired as trader from grad level ???
if i apply for trading at grad level, can i specify wot dpt that i am particularly interested in ( for me is equity not FICC )…so that when they interview me there will be less FICC questions come up ??
thanks
Yes, trading is like that is well. You can specify what you’re interested in but there are no guarantees.
Hi Jerry,
3 questions:
1. With the new financial reform act, what type of firms would be the best to apply to for a prop trading job, since big banks are now restricted in their prop trading abilities?
2. Are there prop trading opportunites on both the buy and sell side?
3.What would be the main differences in the day-to-day activities and pay structure between buy and sell side?
1. Prop trading firms and hedge funds.
2. Not really, as a prop trader you’re an investor so it’s buy-side.
3. Sell-side = work with clients and take their orders. Buy-side = make your own investments at your own pace. Standard deviation of pay much higher on buy-side, but potential is also much higher.
Thanks a lot for the help.
Have you heard of either of these two prop firms: Lynx Capital Partners or AMR Capital? Are they legit shops?
Haven’t heard of them but I know almost nothing about small prop trading firms – might want to ask on the WallStreetOasis Traders’ Forum and see if anyone there can tell you anything.
Long time reader, first time “caller” —- Hope my question isn’t a repeat:
Took advice from your blog and left my Sales Director position of 3 years at Quicken Loans, and “got my foot in” here at JPMChase as a Loan Officer—-goal was to perform like a rockstar, and get doors to open. Guess what? 9 months later, BAM. I’m here. Doors wide open. Manager fully supportive. So, here is “Thank You” number one.
So, with my B.A. in Economics from Michigan (Read: crappy GPA) I want to transfer “internally” to Inst. Sales or IB Sales —- any advice/direction? Or go for MBA first then transfer?
It’s a unique “internal” transfer bc its Chase retail to JP Morgan. (e.g. BAC to ML, Citi Retail to Citi IB, etc)
And here is “Thank You” number two. Cheers.
I would try to transfer directly – basically you need to know someone in those divisions and get them to pull for you. Try to get referrals from your manager and press until he actually does something to help you.
“Thank You” number three!
I have been checking with the site for a long time–it has been invaluable as a math student with fairly little knowledge of the finance industry.
I need some quick advice. I have been offered two interviews with G&S (both of which I applied for a couple months ago)–one sales and trading, one global investment research. While the fact is that I would take either position if given the chance, I think I can make a much better case for GIS and am really not sure that the Sales and Trading environment is for me. Is it rude to decline (all of this is done online, not face to face) the Sales & Trading interview or does it show decisiveness in my understanding of banking? I hear they also generally don’t give out both interviews on campus.
I get the impression that the same set of people will be conducting both interviews, for whatever that is worth.
If it’s the same set of people then just decline the S&T interview
How do I best make the change from commercial real estate sales to institutional sales?
I’ve worked as a broker for several years, and practiced law before that. (The law practice had no connection to finance.)
Thanks a lot!
That is tough and it’s usually easier to go in the opposite direction; probably have to network and cold-call a lot of small places and ask about joining and go through the normal sources like alumni.
Say you got hired in S&T after MBA. What if you flunk out/get fired/laid off from S&T? Can you move to a ‘regular’ company?
Can you move to IBD or some other division within the bank?
It would be difficult but yes you could do it depending on your experience and other skills. Moving to IB is possible but easier the less experience you have http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-to-investment-banking/
HI
can you get a S&T internship even thou uve graduated and worked at IBD for almost a year?
thanks!!
Nope – banks only want students for internships.
I work for a boutique investment bank focused exclusively on private equity mandates. I really enjoy the sales & marketing side of a transaction (talking to PE funds, ‘telling the story’, handling questions/inquiries, etc.) and would like to focus my attention on this. Do you think the skills are transferable to an institutional sales position?
Yes. However, most sales desks want experienced hires who have contacts with long funds and hedge funds so they can start generating commission right away. Depending on your level, you might be able to move to a mid-level/junior-level role where the bank gives you the clients to service. Or focus on building your network w LFs & HFs if you can.
I always say that sales is sales, the only thing that changes is the product you are selling. Nicole is right that an existing rolodex is usually required for more experienced postions. Depending on your experience, though, you can always look for a more junior position and work your way up.
I am interested in Trading because I love working under pressure and it sounds fascinating. Are there any books and articles you suggested me read to learn more about Trading?
Thanks.
I love this site. It is literally invaluable.
Thanks. Not sure of what type of investments you want to learn more about? Others might hv better ideas re books to recommend. The Boiler Room is an interesting movie that gives you a better idea of what trading lifestyle is like haha. I think its a bit exaggerated though.
I am wondering what is the prospect of investment banking and private equity in Indonesia?
This article should address your question http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/business/private-equity-deal-makers-knocking-on-indonesias-door/450817
wow thanks abundantly
Hey Nicole thanks for the quick response. I have applied to analyst position in a firm mentioned in the article. Currently I am just graduating from a university in Singapore and I do not know much about financial modelling and stuff. Do you think I can directly go into private equity? I am really interested and motivated to work in this area. Do you think I can use this ‘motivation’ to differentiate myself in my story telling? Do you think the networking techniques taught here are going to work in Indonesia? Thank you so much.
Because people that are informed and interested in private equity in Indonesia are not many, as far I concern. Mostly people that studied in the US that came back that went into private equity, from what I see from Linkedin.
Tough sell. You are competing people w IB experience. You’d have to network intensively w PE GPs in Singapore and see if they’re hiring anyone entry level (no experience at all). It happens but not often.
I believe our networking techniques work everywhere.
Think the above shd address your questions.
Hi team,
I dont know how it was like in thr past but it seems
common nowadays for trader positions to require experience in,programming and,more specifically SQL and VBA. Do you think it would be worthwhile taking some programming courses to break into trading?
Secondly, so prop trading at investment banks is now banned in the whole world? Does that mean you can only really become a trader thru a prop trader/ hedge fund?
Thanks
1. Sure I don’t think its necessary though
2. Not the whole world but banks have been winding down their prop trading business due to Volcker Rule, esp banks which have rec’d TARP money
Are Sales & Trading positions less competitive on the West Coast considering the time you have to wake up to keep up with the market? Or is there an overall smaller presence on the West Coast limiting the number of spots for traders? And im referring to trading at BB banks.
Most BB banks barely even have S&T on the west coast of the US – it’s very heavily concentrated in NY. So there are very few spots, but few people also apply. Overall the competitiveness isn’t much different, so starting in NY is definitely recommended.
Hi Brian, 3 questions for you:
- Do you think that, having been a sport-exchange trader for 5 years, the banks might be interested in me just for this? (afterall i’m suppose to have experience to work under-pressure and i’ve managed my money)
- Is the growth of High Frequency Trading making this job tougher and less-paid?
- Taking an MBA and then apply to a trading position is the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard even if you would like one day to open your own hedge fund?
thanks a lot
+ Maybe – depends on how you pitch your story
+ I’m not quite sure
+ Not dumbest but if you know how to trade already I don’t know if an MBA would really help – see http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/mba-investment-banking/
thanks nicole…but are you suppose to know how to work (whatever job it is…trading,analysts etc.) since the first days or do you have someone following and teaching you?
Someone should guide you but you should learn fast on the job. Don’t expect to be “hand held” all the time
Are you sure about the high frequency trading? It seems that they front-run you and for the day-traders is becoming quite difficult to earn as before, i heard that the big firms now are seeking for the IT guys..it would be interesting interview some trader now and ask them if the HFT is really affecting their business.What do you think?
http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/joe-saluzzi-high-frequency-trading-equity-market-controlled-machines/52342
I was looking at my prior comment, and I said I was not quite sure re the future of high frequency trading. Perhaps readers would have better answers to your questions.
I will reflect your opinion to the team