The Return of Reader Q&A: World Domination, Mermaids, the Meaning of Life, and Plans for 2011
After a long absence, reader Q&A makes its return today.
Read on to learn all about job postings on Craigslist, whether or not you learn anything useful in banking, the meaning of life, and more – plus my next destination now that I’ve been deported from Asia.
Q: So, why haven’t you done one of these Q&As in such a long time?
A: It’s too hard to find information when it’s presented in Q&A format, and most of the Q&A articles brought in very little long-term traffic compared to, say, the resume template or cover letter template or the private equity interview guide.
But I like giving updates and addressing shorter questions sometimes, so Q&A is back – at least for today.
Got Legitimacy?
Craigslist, certifications (my favorite topic ever), and buying your way into finance: legitimate?
Q: Are those job postings on Craigslist worth applying to? I’ve seen them posted by banks and other financial services firms, but I have no idea whether they’re legit. Thoughts?
A: Sometimes they are actually legitimate, but it’s hard to tell unless they post the name of the firm, which rarely happens.
A bulge bracket investment bank won’t advertise for analyst or associate positions on there, but sometimes real, smaller finance firms do post ads.
Applying online anywhere is 500x less effective than talking to a real person and leveraging that to get an interview, but if you have a few spare minutes, sure, go ahead.
But please don’t spend hours a day on Craigslist looking for that perfect listing.
Q: I know you’re not a fan of the CFA or CPA, but what about the Series 7 / 63 / 65 / 66 / 79? Don’t you think those are more relevant to banking?
A: They might be more relevant, but that doesn’t make them useful. Luckily they take far less study time than the CFA, so if the thought of getting those certifications is keeping you up at night, go ahead.
Just be aware that there’s little point in doing so because you’ll prepare and take them during training anyway if your bank requires it.
Again, work experience, names of schools/companies, and networking matter far more than any certification.
Q: Let’s say I don’t have a banking internship lined up. Do you think those internships where you pay $5,000+ to work for free are worth it?
A: I’ve heard mixed reports. Some of the companies are not real banks or PE firms – they’re just random 2-person operations that have been set up specifically for the internship.
That’s not always the case and sometimes you find legitimate places, but you definitely need to do your own due diligence before you send over thousands of dollars – ask to speak with and visit the firms that are offering the internships first.
The Meaning of Life
Please, no more networking, resume, or interview questions, OK?
Q: You’ve said before that you don’t learn complex math or gain “hard” skills in investment banking. So why should I do it? My parents think I should be a doctor / lawyer / accountant instead since I would at least learn something real!
A: Just show your parents what bankers make compared to what those other professions make and point out the prestige factor and you should be golden.
You don’t gain “hard” skills in the same way you do in those other fields, but you gain something even more valuable: relationships and sales or investing (on the buy-side) skills.
But most people have a hard time assigning value to those skills, so they don’t “get” why financiers make more than the other professions you named.
Q: I don’t understand why it’s so hard to break into finance – you’ve said before that the work isn’t that difficult. I have 15 years of experience working with senior executives, and no bank will even talk to me.
A: The issue is specificity, not difficulty.
It’s like if they’re casting for a movie and need an actor who’s 6’1″ with brown hair and blue eyes: you can be the best actor in the world but if you don’t meet that criteria, you won’t get the role.
Banks focus on recruiting university and business school students 99% of the time because they want people without much experience and people who are willing to pull all-nighters all the time.
Working with senior executives has no bearing on your ability to supervise pitch book production – and you might actually be worse than a newly minted MBA because you will question everything and delay the process.
Q: You’ve said that it’s foolish to follow a “path” and that we should focus on making money instead. But how can you have no plan at all? Isn’t that unstable?
A: I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have any plan – my only point is that creating a detailed 10 or 15-year plan is silly.
Stability is just an illusion – adaptability is far more important.
You don’t have enough information to plan so far in advance, and such a detailed plan will also limit your options – sure, you might want to do 2 years of banking, 2 years of PE, 2 years at HBS, and then go to a hedge fund to conquer the world, but what happens if you change your mind or something better comes along?
Q: I’ve seen comments on your site before that everyone in finance has the “herd mentality” and that no one can think independently.
Do you really think it attracts the best and the brightest? Shouldn’t they be smarter than that?
A: There’s a herd mentality in every industry – finance is not unique. It may not always attract the top students, but for now it still does – though that can easily change, as we saw with advertising in the 60s, bond trading in the 80s, and dot-coms in the 90s.
High-achievers make decisions analytically, and you can’t beat the ROI of finance if you look at money and time invested vs. expected salary, bonus, and prestige afterward.
You could argue that other options are more “fun” but there’s no way to quantify that, so they fall out of the running.
Q: You’re giving readers false hope by posting so many interviews with other readers from lesser-known schools who broke into finance.
The chances of getting into IB/PE/HF from a 2nd tier school are lower than getting into the NFL, and you should do the ethical thing and suggest brokerage and wealth management firms instead.
A: There’s a reason why I’ve labeled these “case studies” – they are examples, not scientifically controlled experiments. Obviously not everyone from lesser-known schools will get into the industry, and I don’t think anyone reading actually expects that.
The chances of getting into IB/PE/HF from a 2nd tier school, while not great, are significantly higher than the chances of becoming a professional athlete because fewer people are interested, there are more spots available, and you don’t need to start training at age 5 to make it.
Most interviews here are about IB and PE because I get the most questions on those, and because most readers are interested in those.
There are also plenty of articles on “Plan B” options and other possibilities such as being a broker vs. being a trader.
So, point taken but we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Life Updates, World Domination, and Mermaids
This is why you really read M&I, of course: entertainment. And mermaids.
Q: I saw on Twitter that you’re leaving Asia and you mentioned somewhere else how it didn’t go well – are you saying the entire region is dysfunctional, or was it just you?
A: The region can’t be dysfunctional if they’re already surpassing (have surpassed?) the West.
I realized after years of working and studying here on and off that I’m an extremely poor cultural fit for most countries in Asia – and that’s about all I will say to avoid to stepping on toes.
I’m off to Australia next, so let me know if you’re in Sydney and we can meet up.
I’ll probably go back to the US eventually but I have no idea when or why, or if it will be voluntary or a result of getting deported from elsewhere.
Q: Now that you’ve done dozens of reader interviews, have a line of 8 products, and hundreds of articles, what are your plans for next year?
A: There are still topics that haven’t been covered yet so I do want to get to those (DCM, LevFin, PWM, ER, Corporate Development, Brazil, Hong Kong, Eastern Europe, Russia, Western Europe…). Some of those are already in progress and will arrive soon.
In terms of products, Real Estate Modeling is coming next and there will also be some additions to the existing courses (e.g. insurance for the FIG course and mining for the Oil & Gas one). I don’t want to go crazy adding 50 new courses because it gets confusing after a certain point.
Two other things I don’t want to do:
- Re-hash topics that have already been covered.
- Cover the news (0 long-term value).
So I may change around the format of the site once again to support those goals.
Q: Why don’t you post 500 updates to Twitter each day? You’re not using Facebook Connect! Shouldn’t you be all over social media?!!!
A: It’s not really my style. I use Twitter occasionally but I don’t enjoy following the news and posting updates 24/7, nor do I enjoy sharing minutiae in my personal life.
The value of social media depends on the market you’re in – for something this narrow it’s not terribly helpful, especially since this site is already well-known in the finance community.
YouTube would actually be the most useful social media site, so I might explore that more next year.
Q: What do you do? I don’t understand – can’t you just make this entire site in 5 minutes and then sit back and have mermaids serve you piña coladas? Since you don’t sit in an office, you never do any work, right?
A: I spend most of my time working on this site and BIWS. At first I spent most of my time on writing and promoting content here, but over the past 2 years that shifted more and more to product development.
Recently, I’ve been spending more time training others, bringing on more people to help out with support, and setting up partnership deals.
I’m mobile but I’m never really “on vacation” – at the minimum I’m doing at least a few hours of work every day, including weekends and holidays.
You don’t get to 115 hours of video, nearly 300 articles, hundreds of thousands of monthly visitors, and thousands of customers by sitting on the beach all day.
The mermaids can’t help you with that, even if they’re former banking analysts.
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I like the short and snappiness of the readers Q&A, I suppose that’s why you once in a while prefer that, right?
you mention you want to get to areas like DCM, LevFin, etc., do you think LevFin is a valid alternative for M&A (especially to break into PE/HF)? Is it feasible to start with an internship in DCM (FIG) and then move into LevFin, then Private Equity?
Similar question, wouldn’t lev finance be better if one wants to break into PE/buyout firms since lev finance mainly serves buyout activities? Correct me if I’m wrong on the point.
Yes, especially now that the markets have recovered from the mid-2007 to 2009 period where there was very little activity. An interview very soon will be covering this.
And yes, mobility with internships is much better than if you try to do it when you’re already working full-time.
Hey Brian,
I’m in Sydney and would love to meet up. How should we go about it ?
Regards,
Gekko
Hey I’ll email you when I get there
When do you predict you will be in Sydney roughly ?
At this point probably February – had a lot of problems getting a visa and I’m not sure when it will go through.
Sorry for being such a pessimistic ass, but I just want to absolutely make sure: I am not having a pipe dream by trying to get into banking with a 2.5 gpa non target engineering. A LOT of people have told me that it’s flat out impossible for me to break into ibanking and that I should look into other fields. Is this a pipe dream and should I forget about banking or should I go all out networking, Econ minors (therefore a good minor GPA), etc. and get hardcore with this field to the maximum possible limit I can push myself to? Do I have even the remotest chance or are bankers trying to be “nice” when they tell me advice on how I could improve my situation with ‘business’ GPAs and internships? Am I getting false hopes and should I be the guy who throws in the towel?
Honestly your chances are not great with a 2.5 from a non-target. Some people do get in but usually they have a higher GPA, above 3.0. I would try to boost your GPA or go to a better-known Master’s program, otherwise you probably want to focus more on fields outside of IB at least for now.
if I have a 3.2 from a target school in a business program, do i still have a good chance at getting into IB?
No, because there are others with 3.5+ GPAs and solid internships. You have a higher chance than someone at a non-target school but I wouldn’t call it “good”
I have final round interviews with a big hedge fund for a fin&operations internship. Is it even worth flying out to the East Coast and losing a day or two for such an internship? I have a similar opportunity in commercial banking. Would you pick commerical banking or operations as a back-up plan to ib?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Depends where you are in school but yes it’s worth flying out to interview for that because it’s better than nothing. Commercial banking and operations are about the same but the big hedge fund name will help you
this is my favorite blog.
that is all.
But it’s not a blog! (or is it? ambiguity rocks)
I have seen you referring a few websites on M&I – managementconsulted.com ,ibankingfaq.com – are both of these equally good for resume revision services ?
thx,
Management Consulted is the best one
Thanks for replying.
Also for interview preparation would you still recommend Management Consulted ?
yes
Brian,
How should I list Breaking Into Wall Street on my resume? I wanted to list it with Technical Skills because I had room within that line but I think it’s more appropriate within a new line titled Certifications & Training, right? Also, I realize some bankers know what it is and some don’t. Do you recommend briefly describing what it is or why it’s beneficial on my resume? If so, how?
Thank you.
Hey there are a couple examples of how to do that on the FAQ page under “Financial Modeling Program”:
http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/faq
You can include a description but it’s not necessary if you’re cramped for space.
Hi M&I,
I am currently at a target with lots of OCR.
With recruiting approaching, I am wondering what the best time is to reach out to contacts regarding securing an interview? I’ve got a few people that I’ve really connected with at some banks, but I am not sure when would be the best time to do the “ask”. Should I do it after the resume deadline or a few days before? I am afraid if I do it a few days before, my contact will forget about me. For example, if the resume drop deadline is the 19th of January, should I “ask” on the 15th, or the 20th? Sorry for being so specific.
And one last question: When a contact forwards your resume to HR, does it actually do anything or is it just a good gesture?
Thanks, and I love this blog, without it I would have no clue how to go about recruiting.
Best,
Jang
1 week before the deadline. Forwarding your resume generally has no effect. You need to ask them to push for you when selecting people for interviews
Hi Brian,
As a soon to be (hopefully) Summer Analyst, I’ve recently been debating a lot with myself with regards to the merits of starting a career in HK/Asia vs staying in the US. Would it better to get an MBA and become at least an associate first in the Wsst, or would there be not much difference in terms of work done and career advancements to start out in HK?
Starting in US gives you more flexibility and it’s easier to transfer elsewhere afterward, if you start in Asia it’s harder to move back to the US
Would the same issues apply when it comes to getting an MBA (ie would a HK division be as likely to sponsor an MBA in the US)?
Not sure about sponsorship but yes, US MBAs are generally the best bet as they have the widest recognition worldwide… Asia is upcoming but nothing on-par with top schools yet.
I’m just wondering, do you have a reason for not having dates on your articles to say when they were published? I love the site and am thinking that maybe adding publish dates would be helpful. I click to the links of your older articles, but would like to know when those ones were published too in order to get more context.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/faq/#site
Hey Brian,
Happy New Year! I like your writing style and look forward to reading some of your upcoming articles.
I work at the Luxembourg Stock Exchange and even though I’m not an investment banker (rather a qualifying accountant working in finance), i’ve gained a real insight into the investment banking sector through your interviews and articles and would like to extend a big thank you for that!
If I had found your site during the time that i was applying for jobs (which wasn’t that long ago) I’d probably have ended up in an investment bank!
I’d also like to know when you’ll be in Sydney, on the off chance that I have my trip planned out around the same time! Would love to have a chat with you.
Good luck and hope you adapt to the australian vibe with ease :)
Nikki
Yeah will post something here or on Twitter when I arrive – still working on getting things straightened out.
Hey Brian,
I now in another article you mentioned that many entrepreneurs “discover” that they want to work in financial services.
Why is this? Are they failed entrepreneurs? Do they make less money running a business than they would in finance? Are they lonely?
What’s the story?
Sometimes they realize the risk is not for them, or they get tired of their business, or they don’t want the stress of starting something else… could be any number of reasons. You get tired of anything after a certain point and I think everyone has ADD.
Brian
Also in Sydney, would be great to meet. Let me know how we can arrange this.
Hope to see you in the near future!
Cheers
Yup will let you know
For farewell emails, if you have friends, associates, VPs, and managers to the emailing list. Do you go
“Dear Friends, Colleagues, Managers, and VPs”
or Colleagues include Managers and VPs?
I don’t want to put the higher-ups in the “lower” category thinking it will disrespect them. How should I address such a group Brian?
Thanks
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-the-farewell-email/
Hello Brian, I’d like to know more about the Structuring deparment, cause I’m interviewing for an intership at Credit Suisse brazilians office.
Thanks for the suggestion will see if it can be covered here
Brian,
Sounds like exciting stuff. I’m planning to visit that side of the world one of these days. It’s going to be a little while, but I’ll make it over there eventually.
Funny story: About a year ago, I was miserable in a job that didn’t challenge me at all (and paid me in similar fashion). I thought Investment Banking sounded like an intriguing opportunity, but really had no idea what the job entailed. M&I helped to fill out my knowledge base, giving me the nuts and bolts to interview well, despite having an unrelated degree and NO relevant finance experience. I ended up with an analyst position at a decent mid-tier bank. So far, aside from the obvious misfortune of a few very late nights, the job has been a lot of fun.
I’ll finish out the two-year stint, but I’m fairly certain I won’t stay in banking afterwards. Long-term, the job simply doesn’t mesh very well with the other parts of my life that I value. In fact, after my analyst position is up, I’ll probably take about a year off and just travel for a while.
One of the books I read as I thought through this idea was the 4-Hour-Work-Week. I got to the end of the book and had a good laugh when I realized that the tool I had used most to get IN to the Industry was the primary vehicle allowing someone else to make their exit. Irony is beautiful.
Anyway, would love to chat sometime. Enjoy Sydney!
Selling drugs > doing drugs
hey brian, many thanks for all your postings, i’ve been following your site for a couple of months now.
i hail from the tiny island of malta in the mediterranean and am dying to get a shot at working as a general counsel or associate for a hedge fund in a financial centre (NY, London, Hong Kong etc). i’m a recently graduated lawyer (2:1, approx.: 3.5 gpa) and i got an internship with HSBC in investment funds and capital markets on the island (interned for 5 months, just got a 6-month extension, raise and official designation). i’m really stuck on whether to follow the legal route (back to a law firm), go work for a specialised international boutique outfit, or stick with the bank. any idea which might be the better option for someone looking to work for a hedge fund? looking at it from your end, what should i do now to upgrade my cv?
many thanks,
dan
First you need to actually get to a major financial center so try to move to another HSBC location and then network into a hedge fund role once you’re there
thanks for your reply. so you think its better to stick with HSBC and hold out for a secondment (which is pretty tough to get) rather than join the local office of an international fund admin/services based here (which I could probably manage) and try and network my way to a financial centre? i guess i just need to know what hedge funds look for in terms of previous work experience..big name banks or outfits of a similar size/area of specialisation.
this site is brilliant…thanks a bunch.
Yes.
Hi Brian,
You mentionned adding a section about mining to the oil and gas modeling program, I was just wondering when approximately that would be ready and up on the website.
Thkx
At this point probably the end of 2011 because O&G was a very recent addition and because mining is not dramatically different. The main differences are actually covered in the interview guide in the industry-specific sections.
Hi,Brian
I am stuyding master in a continental European country and there seems almost no local boutique investment bank opportunities though it is located in the political center. I’ve searched many PEs here with some offering job vacancies on the web, however, I am not sure whethere it’s possible for a fresh graduate to crack the job. What can I do to break into the financial institutions?
Thkx
Look in other cities or go to London; maybe contact alumni and ask around through them as well.
Hi Brian,
I’m in Sydney & a fan of your site. I’d love to catch up when you’re here, so shoot me an email if you have time.
Cheers.
Yup will let you know… currently stranded in Malaysia sorting out visa issues so not sure when I’ll arrive yet.
Why don’t you try getting the Aussie visa from the other side of the causeway? Trust me ,Singapore is really efficient when it comes to such stuff.
I graduated in May and got an analyst job at a small boutique in NYC. I would like to move to a more well-known firm, either a bulge or top MM/boutique. When is the best time to lateral and when do bonuses normally come at large firms? And when is the best time to reach out to recruiters accordingly?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/lateral-hiring-101/
M&I:
I finished my I-banking SA superdays last Wednesday with 6 offers from BB banks in the same city. No exploding offers – placed pressure on myself to make a decision by Friday because I needed to focus on other activities (school/sports). Decided to go with smaller BB under self-imposed pressure. Right after commitment I received an email from Major-player of different BB begging me to join them. Additionally, prior to email, Major-player went above and beyond, and totally out of his way to recruit me to the firm. Emailed me guaranteeing client exposure and mentorship for me as a SA. How bad is it to renege on smaller BB now that I recognize the mistake of turning down Major-player, and what is the best way to go about it in order to minimize negative impact? Is this a no-brainer, given Major-player is much higher than MD within particular BB?
Eh I wouldn’t necessarily renege in that situation as it could really hurt you in full-time recruiting. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/renege-investment-banking-job-offer/