Weekly Reader Q&A: Summer Internships vs. Study Abroad, Low GPAs, Going International AND Local
Yes, you read that headline correctly: this post is NOT about Bear Stearns.
I’m not sure there’s much more to say on the topic at this point in time, but as the situation evolves you may well expect another installment in the saga (I think Episode 3: The Return of The Offer would be appropriate, assuming everything goes well for the Bear Stearns summer interns and full-time hires out there).
I’m going to wrap up the week with another installment of reader Q&A covering some of the non-Bear-Stearns related questions I’ve received recently.
Summer Internships vs. Study Abroad
“I’m trying to decide what to do this summer. Last year I interned at a non-investment-banking financial services/consulting firm (think Deloitte, Standard & Poor, Moody’s) and have the option to go back there this year and work in a different division. However, I also have the opportunity to do a study abroad program in Europe, study international finance and visit branches of large financial firms.
And in addition to both of those, I’m also interviewing for a rotational program at a bulge bracket bank. However, I don’t know what my chances are there and I’m still early in the interview process.
Which of these options is best if my goal is to get into investment banking? And what if I don’t get the rotational program?”
As you alluded to, the bulge bracket internship would be your best option if you want to do investment banking, simply because, well, it’s an investment bank. If you get that I would take it without hesitation.
If you don’t land that offer, the decision is a bit tougher. International experience heavily always looks good when applying for finance jobs (I relied heavily on my study abroad experience when I was recruiting), and it would be good to mix things up and get different kinds of experience.
Since you already had an internship at the same financial/consulting firm last summer, going there again may have diminishing returns. And since it’s not at an investment bank, private equity firm, or hedge fund, it is not going to help you a tremendous amount if you want to get into one of those.
I would lean toward going to Europe, but I don’t think you can go wrong with either one.
How To Cover Up Low GPAs
“I go to a prestigious university, but my performance over my first 2 years there was poor and as a result I had a low-3.0 GPA. I’m confident I can maintain a 3.5 or better for my last 1.5 years here, but am concerned about my poor initial GPA.
I have been including a statement on my resume explaining that my performance over my first 2 years fell short of my capabilities and I was not serious/focused, but I have since changed and been doing much better. Going forward, my GPA will be at least a 3.5 and so my overall GPA will be up as well.
Do you think this is unnecessary or should I leave it in?
I would not include that statement on your resume itself, for a couple reasons:
- It seems quite out of place to list that on a resume. If anything, you would put it in your investment banking cover letter (although as I’ve said before, we rarely read them).
- You do not have any extraordinary circumstances like a death in the immediate family or illness that can easily explain away the low GPA.
- Your GPA is not yet significantly higher; you just say it will be higher. Statements like this work best if you did poorly freshman year, for example, but then got a 4.0 your sophomore year. That proves you experienced a dramatic turnaround.
Your GPA is what it is, and it’s very difficult to hide it from recruiters and others at investment banks reading your resume. As I’ve written before, the best thing to do with a low GPA is to network and avoid going through the standard recruiting process. Once you get your foot in the door, all that matters is your investment banking interview performance.
Perhaps if your major GPA is significantly higher, you can list that as well, which may help assuage low GPA fears at the bank.
How To Get Into Banking With A Truly International Background
“I’m from East Asia and currently study abroad in central Europe at a business university there. While it’s very well-known in the region, internationally it is not a top-tier school. I will graduate in a year with the equivalent of a Master’s Degree.
I have applied to some bulge bracket jobs but was declined, so now I’m applying to local investment banks here. Since my university is not a target school for bigger banks and my GPA is not stellar, I have had a difficult time getting interviews.
Do you think someone with my background realistically stands a chance at getting an investment banking job? Should I do an internship at a local bank? Should I get a CFA?”
You certainly have a unique background. I think you can get into investment banking with your background, but it would be best to focus on regional and local banks as you have done. Right now the job market is rather poor so it will be difficult to work at bulge bracket banks, even at the ones that didn’t go out of business in the past week.
A CFA will not help you all that much – getting banking experience, even if it’s a smaller bank, is definitely the way to go. If you have to, offer to work for free just so you can get the proper experience and start building relationships for a bigger and better job down the line.
I would also reach out to alumni of your university who work in finance or investment banking and see how they can help you find jobs or refer you to regional banks looking to hire. Alumni networking is by far the best way to break into investment banking for those with a non-traditional background.
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I am currently a Finance major at Florida State University and would like to go into the IB field. My question is: Is it possible to get a job in this field with a diploma from a University like FSU (not ivy-league, in other words)? If so, what would I need GPA-wise and would it be smart to get an MBA with a concentration in Finance here.
Trav: It’s possible, but you will need to network extensively and target smaller firms rather than the bulge brackets. GPA is not as relevant as where you went to school. Also, an MBA won’t help much unless you have significant work experience before.
I have a problem similar to one that you addressed in this post: My overall GPA is in the lowish-3′s (3.29 to be exact), and for most bulge brackets, this is low. At the end of my sophomore year, I had a 3.09; I posted a 3.6 during my junior year, which allowed me to bring my GPA up from the “no chance” status it was at to the “eh, you’re getting there” status it is currently at. Is there any way to play this off, or do I just need to wait and hope that someone will give me an interview with my 3.29? I do believe it has a lot to do with me “growing up” and getting “serious,” as well as finding something that really interested me (finance, accounting). If it helps, I have a 3.7 major (accounting) GPA. Any suggestions?
I would list your major GPA on your resume – that will help you the most. Hard to properly convey a rising GPA on your resume, but listing both overall and major GPA will help. You can then bring up in interviews how much you’ve improved.
Thanks. So you would suggest putting both on my resume?
Also, I read in a previous post that “rounding” your GPA won’t be a deal breaker – would rounding my cumulative from 3.29 to 3.3 be a bad decision? Or do you think it would really make any difference, ultimately?
Yeah I’d list both on your resume. 3.29 to 3.3 is fine, won’t make too much of a difference but can’t hurt either.
First of all, my situation: I am going to be graduating high school with my associate’s degree and will be transferring to a public university which is targeted by a North American BB. My college GPA for my associate’s degree is a 3.4 and I have a D and a few Cs on my transcript; yes, I know this is horrid! At this public university, I will be receiving a Master’s of Finance along with my Bachelor’s as a combined-degree program.
On my resume for investment banking, do you think it would be OK for me to not include the community college in which I received my associate’s degree? I was thinking this may be possible since I actually attended this college while in high school, and I will have a master’s degree by the time I actually receive an i-banking job (if I do receive one..).
Thanks in advanced.
Tough call but I would still list it because it might come up in background checks
OK, thanks.
Do they worry about the grades more than the GPA? I know that sounds like a weird question, but if I have a 3.425 (and apply your .09 rounding rule) that would be a 3.5. Would that be an OK GPA even though I have a D and a few Cs? And this is just for the associate’s degree. I’m hoping to have a much higher GPA for my bachelor’s and master’s degrees.
3.5 is enough to not get ruled out due to grades, though of course higher is always better.
Hey there. I have a question regarding study abroad.
I am Chinese and I go to a top 5 liberal arts college.
I am deciding whether I should go study abroad at Nottingham university in UK (ranked 20th nationwide). I know you mentioned several times that study abroad experience always looks good, but given that this is not a prestigous school, my question is that should I go? Hope to hear from you, thanks
Sure, school name matters less for study abroad experience.
Hello,
I am a freshman student at a target school. I finished my first year with a 2.7 GPA due to the unfortunate passing of my mother and being in and out of the city I go to school in, in order to help out my father with my 4 younger siblings. I was also hospitalized this year for 2 weeks because of an illness.
If I manage to pull of a 3.5+ GPA next year, will recruiters give me a chance to interview after justifying my low freshman GPA? Also, how would I go about informing recruiters of the series of unfortunate events?
I was also wondering if this puts me out of the race for some sophomore programs which usually require at least a 3.3 GPA (yes, I am a minority).
If you can raise your grades significantly you could still do it… if you’re a minority use diversity recruiting to gain a big advantage: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-diversity-recruiting/ I wouldn’t mention everything that happened to you as recruiters will think it sounds like you’re making excuses – maybe just say briefly you had a family emergency if they ask you about your grades
Hey Brian,
I have a good enough GPA (3.5 overall, 3.7 major) to be able to travel abroad for a semester, but I feel like it could ruin opportunities. I want to study finance in the UK my junior year, but could the fall semester ruin my networking opportunity? And the spring semester ruin my interview possibilities? I want to intern at an ibank after my junior year, but I feel like studying abroad will cut my opportunity. Should I try to get an internship in the summer in the UK, or is there a way around this? Keep in mind that I go to UMass, so I definitely need to network hard for an interview (so I imagine banks not desiring to put a significant effort to reach out for me).
Thanks for any help,
Ram
Going abroad junior year fall is not a great idea, but the spring is even worse since you’ll miss interviews then. I would go for an internship in the UK (assuming you study at a top school there) to get around that.
When would you recommend going abroad then? Senior year?
You could still do it junior year if you can somehow schedule it to start after winter recruiting ends. Possible at schools that are on the quarter system. Otherwise if you are really set on going abroad then you would have to do it fall of junior year, at least then you could still participate in official recruiting even if networking beforehand is harder.
Hey Brian, I have a pretty low gpa 2.7 and major is 3.0. I’m double majoring in econ and math. My gpa is low cuz I got Cs in most of my math courses. Kept trying but still wasnt pulling through I’m a rising junior so I plan on pushing my gpa for the next 2 years above a 3.5 since I’m dropping my math major and focusing on Econ to break this trend. I wish I had discovered this website earlier cuz it would have been a different story. Anyway I’m writing cuz I would like to have an IB internship and I have a contact in the senior management level whom I can network with, should I include my gpa when I send him my resume or would in not be necessary in this case?
Yes you still need a GPA on your resume or they will assume it’s a 1.0
Hey Brian–
I will be a sophomore this year, but am looking for some guidance on what to do as far as going abroad. Ideally, I would like to get a finance internship this summer and then study at LSE all of Junior year, but I am afraid that this would make it impossible to get an I Banking internship after Junior year (missing recruiting etc.)
I am now looking into getting an I Banking internship in England for next summer (after Soph year), staying in the States for Junior year and then getting an internship in NYC.
So I guess I have a couple of questions..Is it possible/likely to get an internship despite being abroad all of Junior year? Do I have any chance of getting an interhship at a reputable bank in England after Soph year, or is that a stretch? Really questioning what I should do here, as I would love to go abroad but don’t want to hurt my chances in getting a solid internship after Junior year. Thanks!
Yes if you want to work in the states during the summer after your junior year, you might miss out on networking during the fall campus recruiting season when you’re abroad. However, you can still apply online and network w the interviewers virtually though it is probably better to network when the recruiters are on campus. And I’d imagine your interviews will also take place on campus or/and in NY (or other major cities in the US) for the internship in the States.
Not sure if going abroad will def hurt your chances but I think u shd go for it if it is sth you want to do – LSE is a great school! I do think it is still possible for you to interview and get the summer internships in LSE – it might just be more difficult. Good idea to email the recruiters/HR peeps at the banks and ask them what they think – they will give you a better answer than I can!
Hello, I’m a junior at an ivy league, but have a low gpa, but it’s due to extended illness (I have lupus and was suffering from kidney failure). I’m applying for summer internships in investment banking, where they say gpas matter a lot more than other fields. I was wondering how to address that my gpa isn’t indicative of my level of ability on my resume so that I don’t get thrown out? Any advice would help. Thank you!
The only solution is to network aggressively (see everything under Recruiting at the top of the site). Don’t try to explain away your GPA or it comes across as desperate.
Thanks for the article, and for running this site, which is a goldmine of information.
I go to NYU, and I have to decide within a couple of days whether I want to study abroad in Europe or stay in New York. I’m convinced that going to Europe will be an awesome experience, but I held back because I thought that career-wise my time would be better spent in New York taking on more of a leadership role in clubs, networking more (I’m a sophomore), and getting more internship experience (either continuing my current internship at a financial research firm or wealth management at BAML). However, reading about how you leveraged your study abroad experience to break into banking makes me wonder whether if there really is a fun vs career trade-off. Would studying abroad actually be more helpful than staying in New York in this case? I’m Canadian and spent half my life living in Shanghai, and interned at a Chinese commercial bank last summer, so for me studying in the U.S. is already a bit of a study abroad experience.
I think sticking around during the recruiting season it might be easier because you will have access to bankers who are on-campus etc. However, you can still apply for jobs when you’re abroad. Its your call really.
It wouldn’t be during recruiting season though, isn’t recruiting season Junior spring?
Full time recruitment for most banks? Junior fall I believe
Oh I see, I think for my school recruiting for banking summer internships primarily happens in spring though, and junior year summer internships are what I’m more concerned with for now.
I don’t currently have a solid leadership position in university right now, but if I don’t go abroad next semester and stay involved in one of the clubs I’m in right now I think I can become VP or President by Junior fall.
However, I really think I’ll have an awesome time in Europe though. Is it likely that I won’t get interviews with BBs for SA internships if I lack solid leadership experience in college? Assuming GPA, networking, and work experience are above average.
Do you have any experience in financial institutions? If so, I think you don’t need to worry too much. Having fun is important! I’d still network intensively when I’m abroad if I were you though. I’d also keep in contact w HR of different banks and keep them posted of your situation
Haha yeah, it would be great if I could study abroad and be good for SA internships at the same time. I don’t have any private equity, hedge fund, or IBD internship experience. I’m currently working as an analyst at a start-up financial research company, and I have experience interning in the international business division at a commercial bank in China. The trouble is that I haven’t really networked with a large number of banking professionals, and the number of bankers I would be able to keep in contact with while abroad is pretty small.
I can see where you’re coming from. Can you build your own network of contacts when you’re abroad? Perhaps that might help too
Do you mean trying to network with people in person while I’m in Europe? I’m not sure how practical that would be, since I wouldn’t going to a school that’s a particular target for banks, and I think I would want to be spending most of my free time exploring or traveling. Do you think it would be better if I stayed on campus next semester in Sophomore Spring to build a network of contacts, and then go abroad Junior Fall, keeping in touch with the contacts I met in sophomore spring while I’m abroad through email (I don’t really have contacts to keep in touch with right now).
Can you go abroad your sophomore spring and stay on campus junior fall instead?
Yeah that was the original plan, but I’m hesitant because I’ll miss out on leadership opportunities and networking. There are at least two leadership opportunities that I’ll miss if I go abroad spring semester, since elections for positions take place at the end of spring semester.
I suggested going abroad sophomore year instead of fall junior year because fall junior year is the time when firms recruit on campus and when you actually attend info sessions and apply to jobs (for junior year internships)
I think I’m going to pass on the opportunity to go abroad in the foreseeable future. After considering my options I feel like having a good time in NYC + getting a job is more appealing than having a great time in Europe but possibly not getting a job. Thanks for your help, Nicole!
Anytime!
I went to a top tier school, and have some international experience working in Public Policy. I want to break into Management Consulting. My cGPA is very low (2.97-3.0), but its a mixed mag of marks (plenty of A+ in quantitative courses, but plenty of C’s as well). My major GPA is probably around 3.3-3.5, the truth is, I was forced by my parents to study preMed in the first 2 years of school, and I suffered a loss of a close family member after my 2nd year. I did not enjoy my University experience at all. I was a gifted student, President of my high school among other things. Finally, after a lot of reflection, I have become determined to put my energy to good use, but I am unsure I can even get my foot through the door.
It would be tough to get into a top management consulting firm with that GPA. Focus on smaller places and think about related fields (i.e. other types of consulting).