Positioning Yourself for Business School, Part 1: The Financier
It’s a question on everyone’s minds these days:
“How can I get into the Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton MBA programs?”
“If I don’t get into finance or consulting right now, should I go back to business school instead?”
“How can I stand out from everyone else who’s applying?”
With the markets still in turmoil, more and more people are thinking of heading to business school. Even those who actually have jobs are thinking of going back to school to insulate themselves from layoffs and get a 2-year vacation while they’re at it.
Regardless of your background, though, you’ll face a unique challenge getting into business school and then using it to get into finance:
The criteria to get into business school is different than the criteria to get into finance coming from business school, and the two often contradict each other.
So here’s how you solve that problem…
The False Promise of Re-Branding?
Here’s the paradox that crops up when you apply to business school and then try to leverage it to get into finance:
- Top schools like a diverse student body – they don’t want everyone to have done two years of banking followed by two years of private equity. Especially in recent years, these schools have become biased against students with pure finance backgrounds.
- Banks and financial firms, on the other hand, don’t care nearly as much about diversity and would love to recruit only students with previous finance experience. Someone with previous experience represents reduced risk, and is more likely to stick around past their first all-nighter creating a pitch book.
In late 2007, recruiters were still trying to convince me that two years of banking followed by two years of private equity was a “guaranteed” ticket into top MBA programs. It’s funny how quickly things can change.
One of the key selling points of MBA programs is a chance to “re-brand” yourself. And when banks desperately need people (see: 2004-2006), they’ll open up to your story of personal transformation from traveling bard to the next Gordon Gekko.
But when they’re not so desperate (now), they start to consider only those who have done finance before.
So this selling point is highly dependent on market conditions and often turns into disappointment for MBA-level applicants without some type of finance experience.
Curious Conclusion
This past recruiting season, I spoke with many talented business school students who had started companies, nonprofits, and had all sorts of other impressive accomplishments. But even with those credentials, each one faced an uphill battle getting interviews and job offers if he or she had not done finance previously.
This brings us to a curious conclusion when looking at both of these points together:
If you’re already in finance, you need to find a way to stand out amongst the crowd and tell an interesting story if you want to get into business school. And if you’re from a different background, you still need to worry about that – but more importantly, you need to find a way to show banks that you can do the work.
In this article, we’ll address anyone in the first category: anyone from a finance background thinking of business school.
Standing Out From a Finance Background: Got Prestige?
I received an email from a reader the other day asking, “I thought it was basically the prestige of your firm that set you apart in MBA admissions?”
My response: While brand-name recognition matters, admissions committees don’t view you dramatically differently based on where you worked within a specific industry. They’re not going to look at someone and say, “Aha! He worked at Morgan Stanley so he should definitely get in, but that guy only worked at Houlihan Lokey so he is obviously unqualified to join us!”
You do gain an advantage by working somewhere well-known, but keep in mind that people from all sorts of different backgrounds apply to business school – so the “prestige” arguments people often get in on message boards become even more pointless in this context.
After reading thousands of applications, anyone in admissions starts to view most banker types as… pretty much the same.
So basing your entire application on the “prestige” of wherever you worked is a losing proposition, especially these days when tons of laid-off financiers are applying to business school.
The Real Way to Stand Out
Alex from MBA Apply hits the nail on the head with the real way to stand out in admissions:
“Build a life, not a resume.”
This is not a new concept for anyone who’s been reading this site over the past year. Regardless of whether you’re applying for business school, university, or even going through interviews, your chances of success depend largely on your “story.”
One small problem: if you work full-time in finance, it may be almost impossible to find the time to do anything outside work.
How to Develop an Interesting Story Even If You Have No Time
You don’t need to spend 20-40 hours per week on something to make yourself stand out.
But if you’re in banking or at a large PE firm, you probably don’t even have five hours per week to spend on other activities.
If you’re still thinking about business school and have absolutely no time for outside interests currently (Wait, how are you reading this article then? Hmm…), here’s what I’d recommend:
- First, decide if you’re actually interested for the right reasons. If you’re planning to stay in finance for the long-term and you’re already in it, an MBA usually doesn’t make a big difference (exceptions apply). Being “interesting” therefore matters far less.
- If you are interest is sincere, reduce your work commitment by moving into a different firm, group, or industry. A word of caution: in most cases the only move that “guarantees” a better schedule is leaving finance and moving into “industry” in a business development or corporate finance role.
- Once you have the time, develop some of those forgotten interests and hobbies… or find new ones. Even something that only takes up a few hours per week can be spun into a good story on your applications.
Before exiting or entering different industries, you really need to weigh why you want to go to business school in the first place. My own personal view is that the “2-year vacation” plan is a bit silly given the expense, opportunity cost, and the fact that you’ll actually be quite busy (programs have become more rigorous).
That’s especially true these days, when everyone has the exact same plan and admissions are more competitive than ever before – you need better motivation than just wanting to take a break.
Coming Up Next: Positioning yourself from a non-finance background, other factors that make a difference in admissions, and other motivations for going back to school.
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Tags: changing careers, investment banking, investment banking career, MBA, prestige, telling your story, understanding investment banking, vacation
Other readers who liked this article also liked these:- Positioning Yourself for Business School, Part 2: The Non-Financier
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- Can You Really Use Business School to Re-Brand Yourself and Break Into Finance?
- No, Don’t Go Back to School, Become a Ski Bum or Even Think About Chinese Gold Farming: Why You Shouldn’t Time the Market
Hey! Awesome post. Two quick questions:
What business school did you attend M&I?
Was there a common set of traits among your classmates who came from a pre-MBA finance background?
Thanks!
Business school: This is all based on conversations with those in school, field research, and helping people get in by reviewing their applications.
Common set of traits: Yeah, they all had something else that stood out about themselves… some had lots of musical talents, others had unusual backgrounds etc. Hardly anyone just followed the standard set of stuff and hoped for the best.
How does on get into PE without an MBA right out of banking for 2 yrs?
You speak with headhunters, network, and get on their radar that way. Headhunters are the key to getting into PE from banking. Most PE interviewing is taking place right now at least for the larger firms.
I thought it was an essential for someone to get an MBA before applying for PE or even having a chance to talk to headhunters?
Uh.. no. PE has both pre-MBA and post-MBA positions, just like banking.
M&I, a suggestion/request for a future post: one successful and one unsuccessful example of a normal person (one who has not climbed mountains in Japan) spinning his story into something interesting. Thanks!
Yup will see what we can do. it’s difficult because everyone in this field is super-secretive but I’ll ask some current business school applicants what they’ve been saying.
If you’re an undergrad (at a top 15 US News and World Report school) and were allowed to complete about 1/3 of the coursework necessary for a MBA while still enrolled as an undergrad and managed to get A’s – does this significantly help your odds?
not really… only finishing the actual degree makes a difference. could be good to bring up in interviews etc. but not likely to make an enormous difference.
Just a word of caution on career changing–I worked in technology for about ten years, then got my MBA from NYU Stern. Switching into finance at 30+ is a difficult proposition. The only interviews I got were for technology positions at IBs. A couple of people I knew with similar backgrounds had to take unpaid summer positions to gain enough experience to have a hope at some interviews. I had a similar experience with management consulting–no consulting experience, no interviews.
I think MBAs get sold as a way to switch careers, but the reality is that it is quite difficult to do. I ran into quite a few people like myself with technology backgrounds who ended up staying in technology because the opportunities were still superior. A couple were able to transition to operations or marketing (which is highly technical now).
More thoughts here: MBA Career Change
yup that is exactly what I am covering next.
What if your background is REALLY non-traditional? My buddy from school who is way smarter than me and pulled close to a 3.8 is in a legitimate, revenue generating, touring metal band as a musician. Would that be beneficial in setting himself apart?
Yes. That is coming up next.
Hi,
I am going to attend the spring week of GS in London in a couple of weeks. This is the info I have about what will happen during the week.
“Overview presentations on Banking, a tour of the Goldman Sachs campus, networking session, a mixture of technical and soft skills workshops, culminate in a group exercise.”
What kind of workshops is it? And what can the group exercise be in particular? How and how much should I prepare?
Do you have any other general tips about spring weeks? How do I benefit from the week the most? Do I get better odds on the summer internships of 2010?
I would be really grateful for an answer!
Best Regards
Answered in Q&A post.
Good post! Thanks
What about the in depth guide you were working on Private Equity?
In the comming weeks?
We thought about it but decided to work on other things first. It might be coming at some point but it is very, very difficult to write a PE interview guide that caters to everyone vs. IB interviews which are more standard.
I am one year out of school and currently working as an actuary, but I don’t enjoy my job. I have taken some courses in finance, accounting, economics, advanced option theory, etc and find those subjects much more interesting. Is it still too early to head back to school for an mba to transition?
Yeah you probably don’t have enough experience yet… maybe try to switch jobs and spend 1-2 more years out first
Got a question..am currently an Econ major, minor in Intl Relations at a decent sized program..however i discovered that the economics major gets put on the back burner and everyone goes into finance instead. We get some local recruiters but no banks..BUT i found a web site that lists every I Bank in america..believe it or not..and so u better believe everyone of them is getting a resume from me..but my question is this?
Should I grad in 4 years wit my Econ/Intl Relations degree?
or should I major in Finance and minor in Intl Relations and Econ and try and study abroad ->found an internatinoal work experience thing..it seems interesting?
**Also**
What do you think about these Masters in Finance Programs, I use to want to be a trader coming out of skool..but i found out IBankin gives u more versatitlty..thanks to your article you wrote..should i get a Master in Finance and try and break into the market? or jus get bachelors and work experience and fight for MBA??
I’m not sure I understand your question, but I would do whatever most people who get into finance do in terms of major. If you need a major in Finance, then yes I would do that.
On your second question, it really depends on whether you have any work experience right now or can get any… if you can, then a Masters is not necessary. But if you have nothing, delaying your graduation by doing one of those programs might be a good idea.
Well the first question was basically whether i should major in finance or economics…but u answered that question…but another question…what do you think about JD/MBA…as ur previous article said, At best you have 3 – 5 years in the law before you can transfer over..do you think that would be helpful..to work for like Cravath or Sully/Cromwell for 3 years and then transfer over? The law school I am in contact places at top law firms..also Citigroup and BoA recruit from the MBA program..
So basically question is..is the JD/MBA a good thing (Id like to get all my schooling done in one shot, especially since im gettin my bachelors right after i turn 21..so im young)?
Or just stick with the traditional Finance to I bankin route that you answered previously..
I don’t really think a JD/MBA gives you any advantage over a normal MBA. The only reason to do it is if you actually want to work in law or a hybrid law/finance field – otherwise I would just stick with the normal route.
Thank you.. I greatly appreciate it..I realize my shot at I-Banking is a long one at best..May be able to get in with a boutique but we both know its not as good as BB..but im glad there is someone who i can ask stuff like this..keep up the good work..this website is EXCELLENT..if i cant land in Ibank..then i guess ill be a lawyer
but ill be closer to the deal somehow..but ya..keep up the good work!!!
From people you’ve talked to and your experience, do you actually learn anything valuable in MBA?
Honestly, no. The only reason to do it is for the connections / access to recruiters.
I am really passionate about pursuing a career in Investment Banking, I have read a plethora of books and movies on the subject and at present I major in Finance and Economics, please tell me if I am in correct with my analogies that more is better in the heat of competition. I plan to pursue a MA in Math Statistics as well as an MBA in Finance. The Asian population is heavily Quantitative based in their academic accomplishments is it smart to load up your educational guns and put them on rapid fire with an MA in Math an MBA in finance and maybe pursuing the CFA as a backup, plus I am forty and I worked as an air traffic controller for 15 years does my age weigh against me but is nullified if I have impressive academic credential.
I’m not sure I understand your question(s), but it’s quite tough to break into the field with 15 years of experience in another industry. If you want to do that your best shot would be to go to a boutique focused on aerospace or something similar where you can leverage your background.
I didnt quite understand your answer,allo me to elucidate. I am switching careers at the age of 40. I am very interested in a career in IB. I am currently pursuing a double major (BA) in Finance and Economics my GPA is 3.1; as I am a former airtraffic controller and currently working at a Major trucking comapny as a pricing analyst in the finance department. I am interested in further pursuing an MA in Math Statistics and an MBA in Finance. Are you saying that I am limited to only boutique firms because of my experiences and age? What are my likely career options as an Invetsment Banker? My second choice would be Sales and Trading and Asset Management and Research would be third. I appreciate your assistance as you appear to be well informed.
There is a huge age bias in the field, because they expect you to work 80-100 hour weeks initially and assume that only undergraduates/MBAs just out of school can do that.
I won’t say it’s impossible to get in with your age/experience, but I think you would have better luck in the other fields you mentioned.
Usually you stand a better shot at getting into banking with a lot of work experience if you have senior-level relationships at companies and can pitch yourself as someone who can bring in business.
Thanks you for your conscise but well thought answer, however if I am still determined to take a long shot and I am at the opposite end of the court and about to shoot my once in a lifetime million diollar shot! How do I a prepare myself and would an internship through my university be a viable option even at age 40 + along with mastery of excel and Financial modeling and an impressive academic record and maybe working as Financial Advisor give me any leverage towards career field of IB. I am going for bulge bracket or are my chances completely infinitismal. What if I interview well be willing to work 100+ hours a week! Besides I cannot be the first forty-year who has aspired to get in this career field at forty. some one has done this before me did I mention I am study the CFA level 1?
Those credentials do help you somewhat, but I am just making you aware that there is a big age bias in finance, for better or worse (obviously worse in this case).
I would strongly recommend avoiding bulge brackets unless you have an incredible connection (C-level executive) as you will be fighting an uphill battle – it’s also hard to get access to recruiting channels unless you go to a top 10 school.
I’m sure some others have done it before, and your credentials certainly help, so I’m not saying it’s “impossible” – I’m just saying that the competition is stiff and it’s very difficult to get into a large bank from a “non-standard” background.
Thank you very much for your clear assesments and the answering of my questions. What I gather from our threads is that my journey will be difficult at best :even with an impressive background and academic record within the realm of a bulgebracket IB and PE firms, however Breaking into Wall Street makes the assertion that it aided four non finance experienced people get into PE firms which are much harder to do than IB firms. I am not saying that you are not offering sage wisdom. Butr,we both know if I sit on my backside nothing will happen and nothing will be accomplished, thanks again for providing realistic and experienced advise to those of us who want to experience a career in IB. If you any further recommendation that could aid and asist me it would be tremendously appreciated. My best to you and the IB family.
Well, those people were from much different background than you. They were either students or were working in another field of finance… so it’s not really the same situation.
I’m just being honest with you because it is VERY tough to get in as an Analyst/Associate with 15 years of work experience.
I see your points and all of them make good common sense and based upon what I have heard an read as well I do agree. Maybe an MBA at a top ten school maybe be a good route? Or finding an IB where some of their specialties or sectors are in in Aerospace, Aviation and transportation is an area of expertise where I can leverage my experience with a boutique bank, would be a possible better route. Forget bulge Bracket for now is what you are saying until I have built up some serious level of experience. I believe the aforementioned is what our thread has surmised this much.(For Purposes Of Clarity) The B- Schools of choice are Chicago Booth, Yale SOM and U Of Penn (Wharton) may give me a slightly better oppurtunirty is what I gather. Am I correct? But Age and experience dictate oppurtunities.
Yes a top school will help more but I’m just being honest with you: it’s tough if you have 15 years of experience no matter what your credentials are. Give it a shot and see what the reaction is from those you contact. Transferring to a top business school will not make much of a difference in this case.
Firstly, let me thank you again for answering my questions and I do understand that Analyst will do the reading of resumes and classify them as those with banking and finance experience has one pile and non-finance banking experience is another pile. The interview by in large go to those with Experience in banking and Finance. I got it! However, you contradict yourself in the last thread. You actually do this in a previous thread as well and I am not looking for anything but straight answers and again please understand I appreciate you taking the time. However, I asked will a top business school aid me in getting interview and you say yes it will help more even ( I guess that “more” is slightly less than incremental) with the explanation of my work experience in tow and then at the very end of the same thread you say that attending a will not make much difference in my case. Huh??? It either does or it doesn’t, Believe me I fully understand that I would be aided by knowing someone who is a senior level executive if I want to improve my chances, got it or I may slip in or by as a charity case as one in a million shot, I Got that too! If I want a IB opportunity I should find a boutique that has an aviation focus I got that too! Just make it plain is all I am asking now I would like to continue building my resume experience and to even purchase you excellent well reviewed course on financial modeling if it can help!
There are thousands of comments on here, and everyone’s situation is different. I don’t cross-check every single comment.
BASICALLY, if you are under 30 then a top business school will help you vs. a non-top school because banks only recruit at top schools.
But at 40+ it is very, very difficult to transition into finance because banks like people with 5-10 years of experience – or less – more.
So yes, going to a top school will give you more opportunities but for someone with your background it would still not make a huge difference.
If you have more detailed questions, email may be better – comments are really more for quick questions and answers related to the article.
You are Gem thank you!!!
M&I, the “stand out in business” link is broken.
Could you repost? Would love to see the article.
Best,
Johnny Cage
I just looked on his site but it looks like he permanently removed the article for some reason – so there’s no easy way to get it back.
How do you define a target school? When BBs go to my school and conduct career presentations, does it mean that my school is a target school? Sorry if this makes a dumb question..
Yes, that sounds right. If banks actively recruit there it is a “target school.”
BBs usually conduct career presentations and recruit from my school, but they recruit more for the middle and back office positions, such as equity research, technology, finance, etc.
I heard that they recruit very few students for the IB positions, because BBs get applicants from the top 5 in US as well (my school is in Singapore).
Is it really a target school? Because I feel that my chances of getting into IB there is really small, judging from the stories..
Probably not