The Myth of the Career Path
I’ve gotten a lot of questions about how you can start your own hedge fund, make $1 billion per year in cash, and then retire at age 30 with enough capital to buy several countries.
So today I’m going to give you the exact set of steps you need to do all this: all you have to do is copy and paste and fill in a few blanks and you’ll be well on your way toward being the next hedge fund billionaire.
The Short Con
Just kidding.
You really thought I was going to share that information when I could just keep it for myself?
Just like when I explained why finance doesn’t guarantee you $10 million and your own beach in Thailand, you’ll want to grab some yerba mate and close your YouTube windows because this will be a long one.
And by the end you might be having a quarter-life crisis.
Why?
Although the introduction above is a joke, it was inspired by reality: I get dozens of emails about the best “path” to follow and the trade-offs between different “career paths.”
We’ve begun to believe that there’s a single set of precise steps you can follow to become MD at a bulge bracket bank, a Partner at your own hedge fund, or even the top guy at the SEC.
So where did it start, and why do we believe so strongly in the “career path”?
We Want to Believe
Sure, there’s an 87-step process you can use to go from student to CEO. You just need to stick to the plan precisely over 25 years and pay really careful attention to steps 61-72.
The last time I published a similar article, something interesting happened: even though the article explained why there is no “perfect” job in finance, many of the comments were from readers looking for exactly that.
What about private wealth management? What about finance in this one city if you keep your hours down by not doing x, y, and z and instead doing things completely differently?
The magic bullet is out there. Right?
Because You Learned It In School
What happens at the end of 1st grade? You move into 2nd grade. At the end of 8th grade, you go into high school – then at the end of high school you start university.
For over 20 years, most of us follow a specific path our entire lives.
So what happens afterward?
We want to keep following a specific path.
That’s why so many kids from Harvard head to Wall Street: there’s a promise of unlimited rewards if you follow a specific set of instructions.
And how bad could it be? There’s greatness at the end:
Elements of Truth
Yes, it’s difficult to move from a hedge fund trading weather derivatives to one investing in technology companies in Israel if you’ve been at your fund for 10 years already.
Yes, you probably do need to be a Governor or Senator before you can become President of the United States.
If you look at smaller segments of your life, there are “paths” at certain points or at least obstacles you have to overcome to get from point A to point B.
But what happens before you get to point A or after you get to point B?
For all the hype over exit opportunities, no one has a well-defined picture of what happens after you get into PE or after you get into that hedge fund you’ve been lusting after.
Who Wants to Do Any Work, Right?
“Path” implies that you can get to your destination without much effort: you can just stroll along, and no matter how slowly you go, eventually you’ll reach the end.
But what if we called it a “career twisty, crooked, spiral with boulders falling down” instead?
Dangerous.
Plus, you might actually have to do some work then.
Even in more “creative” or “independent” professions, we still want all the answers handed to us.
What entrepreneur wouldn’t want the exact set of steps needed for a $10 billion IPO? What actor wouldn’t want to know the exact set of movies he needs to star in before hitting it big?
Why do the work when someone else can give us all the answers?
It’s All About the Destination
“Path” also implies that the destination is the most important part and that everything beforehand is uninteresting.
I see this all the time when I get emails from readers wondering how they can “skip” being analysts or associates and become MDs directly instead.
Two problems with this:
- You can’t actually do it.
- If you don’t like the work at the analyst or associate level you still won’t like it at the MD-level.
Yes, everything becomes more relationship-driven at the top but you are still pitching and executing the same deals.
It’s not like you suddenly become Ari Gold and start “advising” supermodels.
There’s No Data
What percent of college graduates who became investment banking analysts 20 years ago are now Managing Directors?
I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.
Making decisions when data suggests the opposite is dangerous, but making decisions in the complete absence of any data is even worse.
When there’s no data, it’s easy to make statements like, “Anyone who starts out in investment banking or management consulting rises to a high-powered position and becomes a millionaire within 10 years.”
Even though we don’t have the data, you can easily disprove this one: just look at the website of any financial institution and compare the number of analysts or associates to the number of MDs or Partners.
Somewhere along the way, people are falling off the path.
We Would Rather Avoid Loss Than Achieve Success
Most of us are more motivated to avoid loss rather than to achieve what we really want.
That’s why I title so many emails to BIWS members “bad news” – even if it’s not bad news, it makes you curious and prompts you to open it.
What’s the bad news? Are you shutting down? How will I be affected? How can I avoid having something bad happen to me?
It’s the same with the “career path”: it may not be ideal, but it’s better than the alternative of being directionless.
We Like To Blame Other People
Why couldn’t you break into investment banking?
Well, you didn’t go to an Ivy League school… you didn’t take the CFA… you didn’t have an internship.
When someone else defines the path, it’s easy to blame external factors or “the rules” when things don’t go as planned.
Having someone else define a path also lets us spend a lot of time on marginal tasks – like getting certifications – while avoiding the larger questions.
The Problem
So that’s where the Myth of the Career Path comes from.
Just one problem: there’s no such thing as a “career path.”
No one can tell you the exact set of steps you need to follow over 20 years to go from MBA to MD.
Even CEOs of banks have started off in other industries before switching over.
No, you “normally” don’t break into finance from law or engineering or real estate or sales or non-profit work, but that doesn’t mean you can’t.
Besides the fact that there’s no set of precise steps you can follow, there’s another big problem: you’ll change your mind over time.
If you go to certain schools, going to work in fields like investment banking (or even accounting) is viewed as mandatory – when everyone around you is doing it, you have to do it just to fit in.
But once you graduate, you’re no longer under constant scrutiny – so following a path doesn’t seem as necessary.
The Real Career Path
So is there any real path over the long-term? Surely you can’t just get out there and do something completely random, right?
There is a “path,” but it’s not the elite high school –> Ivy League school –> investment banking –> PE –> Greatness one that you’ve seen.
Make money, move up. Don’t make money, move out.
Headhunters can explain in even greater depth why this is true.
Want to earn a lot of money without talking to anyone or doing anything other than crunching numbers?
Not likely to happen.
Despite the obsession with analysis, modeling, and how many tabs your spreadsheet has, all of those skills are commodities.
What really matters are relationships and specifically how well you can leverage those relationships for profits.
Where Junior Bankers Get Stuck
And this is exactly where a lot of people get “stuck” at the mid-level: they’re good at execution but can’t bring in new clients or generate profits or ROI on their own.
But that’s exactly what you need to advance to the top, and it’s the actual “path” that no one ever tells you about: make money, then make even more money, and then make even more money after that.
But It’s Scary!
For 2 reasons:
- You won’t know if you’re any good at it until you’re at the level where you can make money through your own efforts.
- No one can “teach” you how to reach the top this way. Some people have a knack for it, while others can never do it even after years of effort.
That might be why you never hear about this “career path”: we don’t like to acknowledge uncertainty.
Exceptions
But wait, do you really need these “relationships” for everything? What about something like trading, where you could just follow a squiggly line around the screen and make a lot of money?
It’s true that relationships don’t matter as much (at all?) in trading, but it’s even more results-driven than investment banking.
If you’re not turning a profit, they won’t hesitate to kick you out ASAP. And if you turn a huge profit, you’ll move up – quickly.
Compare that to investment banking or private equity, which doesn’t become profit-driven until you’re closer to the mid-level.
The Mid-Level Curse
A lot of financiers start off as analysts or associates, do well, and assume that it’s a straightforward path to the top: Analyst –> Associate –> VP –> Director / SVP –> MD.
Yes, those are the stages you go through to reach the top but it’s not how you actually get there.
This is what happens when you “fail” in finance: you reach the mid-level but can’t go any further, so they keep you around for a bit and then show you the door when you can’t transition to profit generator.
And then you “move into industry.”
What to Do About It
So there’s no such thing as a specific path that will get you to the top.
At the beginning you need to follow orders from others, but then over time you need to turn into a profit center.
So what should you do, and how can you prepare?
Try Out Everything You Can
It’s much easier to switch “paths” – or invent your own – when you’re younger and you don’t have a 20-year history following you around.
So do everything you can to try out different industries and different roles – school-year internships, pre-MBA internships, and simply talking to as many people as possible.
You’ll probably be wrong anyway, but at least this way you can say you tried.
Take Anything You “Must Do” With a Grain of Salt
There are very few things you “must” do to break in or advance once you’re in.
You need a degree and decent grades but beyond that it’s not like medicine where you need multiple degrees, a residency, and all sorts of other certifications.
Similarly, advancing rarely requires certifications, specific experience, or anything else artificial: just make them money.
And be glad that there’s far less politics in finance vs. “normal” companies: being results-oriented is great if you can get results.
Stop Making Detailed 20-Year Plans
There’s a chance that investment banking might not even be around in 20 years.
At the very least, the industry will be way different and whatever plan you came up with in college will be outdated within a year or two.
If you want to get into a specific type of PE firm you might plan ahead for that – but when you get into specific dollar amounts you want to be make in 10, 15, or 20 years, you need to stop.
Make or Save Them Money… From Day One
This is the most overlooked one: even at the junior levels you need to show evidence that you can one day earn money for your firm.
Most VPs and MDs don’t even remember how to use Excel – but they do understand profit.
You need to strike a balance here because you can’t go in and start asking about cross-border China deals on your first day – but once you prove yourself after a few months of work, you need to make yourself even more useful.
It’s tough to source actual clients at the junior level, but you can suggest ways to find them, methods for saving time or money, or anything else that makes senior bankers’ lives easier.
And if you don’t do that, forget about becoming an MD: you may not even make it into private equity.
Finally
Most of all, stop following a specific “career path” – because there isn’t one.
There are many possibilities, but no paths.
Cast a wide net and try out as much as you can as early as you can.
See what you like the most, pursue it, and adapt accordingly.
And hey, if all else fails, you can always open your own surf shop in Brazil.
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Great article, Brian. I see myself and most of my friends thinking in this mindset. Even though I acknowledge this, it’s still difficult to break out of the mentality. I’ll be going into my analyst stint trying to (a) keep an open mind about the future and (b) be super detail-oriented, because doing a great job will open more doors for me than strategizing about where I want to go.
Yeah, it gets easier once you’re out of school. Being detail-oriented is good but saving bankers time or money is even better.
Do you have examples of how I can save my bankers time and money?
There are several examples here:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-private-equity-recruiter-interview/
HAhAHAHh I’m From Brazil… Brazilian beaches are really amazing…
Very nice article… But i bet 1/10 you not work in a IB…
But still a excellent article
WHAT A FUCKING FANTASTIC ARTICLE. ONE OF THE BEST BLOG POSTS ON THE NET
i used to think there was some “path” that i was supposed to follow
now i don’t believe in that any more. for me at least, it wasn’t worth it, and it wasn’t “me” at all
ZB is right. Great article!
Hi Brian. great post.
Just a suggestion, have you considered adding a forum to the website? I think it would be a great thing to do as your content is always stellar.
Cheers,
Kagem
I’m not going to add a forum because I don’t feel it would add anything over other message boards. I’ve thought about doing it inside the membership site at some point.
As a career switcher from aerospace engineering its reassuring to read articles like this. As you peer into the snake pit of the banking world, you wonder if you even have a chance since you haven’t followed the ‘ideal path’, but more and more you realise there are so many other factors involved. By 100% pure chance through a colleague I have the perfect insider contact which im hoping will be my foot in the door, you never know whats gonna come along. The sooner you realise there is no set formula, the sooner you can focus your energy more productively on either getting a job, or being a more valuable employee. Brian, great article, great site. Thanks.
So at what level do they EXPECT you to get clients? Associate? VP? And what are the best exit options available in the industry in case you cant get the required clients? Ie what sort of jobs can an investment banker who has only IB experience get in the industry?
Thanks for the great post!
Usually around late Associate / VP level they want to see you developing relationships with clients. If you can’t do that, then you would most likely go to industry and work in a finance / bus dev role at a company you’ve worked with before.
I recently started at my analyst stint and I just have to say that this is the exact article that I have been looking for for quite some time. I am not the typical banker. I am doing banking mostly because of the reasons listed in this article…it is the “path”. I have always considered other options in college but only recently have I seriously considered ditching the whole “path” and doing something completely different. Therefore, it is very refreshing to see someone actually write about this. However, my only concern is this…
Is is truly possible to be as financially “free” doing other things (namely, entrepreneurship)? I have lots of friends who are entrepreneurs and at the same time a lot that were/are bankers/consultants and it seems like the deeper you get into the path, the more “stuck” you become.
Care to share your thoughts on entrepreneurship and the lifestyle and the sacrifices you have to take in order to succeed? Similar to banking?
It depends largely on how you approach it. If you want to start the next Google / Facebook then yes, there’s a lot of risk and sacrifice involved, probably more than banking.
On the other hand, if your goal is to start a business that lets you earn on-par with what you would get in finance (or even more than that) then it doesn’t have to be that difficult. The main problem is sticking with it until you start seeing major results. This site did not really take off until 2 years after I started it.
I know this is probably a bit too personal, but are you really making finance money from this blog? How exactly does a blog generate revenue? I ask because I don’t see any ads.
http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/breaking-into-wall-street-courses/
I don’t talk about specific revenue figures but I wouldn’t spend this much time on everything unless it was substantial.
you’ll never be financially “free”; it’s a myth. the more you have, the more you spend and the more you’ll need and want. my two cents..
Nice to read this great post. I am 45, a government employee trying to swicth to finance. Although i have an MBA, I am always thinking that it might be too late to switch. I am so miserable at my government job, so I signed up with BIWS to learn the nuts and bolds of financial modeling, hoping to increase my chance to catch the attention of a banker. I do not know where It s gonna lead me too, but at least, the feeling that I am doing something to change the state of the matter keeps me going. This article is great in the sense that it reminds all of us on this forum that there is no such a thing as a career path. All that matter is “keep trying” things that you would like to do in life, because we are in a journey, we do not know why we are here, yet we are striving to achieve greatness. I am an example of an MBA who has lost his mind. Brian, I may need your counseling since I am already your BIWS student. Age 50 is knocking on my door.
No counseling services at the moment, but I’ll let you know if that changes. :)
Hi Brian,
I meant merely an advice as to how to break through into IB. I have an engineering degree, worked as management Consultant for Deloitte & Touche, hold an MBA from RIT, Rochester, NY. How do you see all these assets? Shouldn’t I be able to break into I? I knoew the economy is slow but I am ready to wait until things turn around.
At this point you’d have to position yourself as a senior-level hire, which is dependent on what your previous experience looks like.
I won’t lie: they are not going to hire you as an investment banking analyst if you have 20 years of work experience.
If you can properly position yourself as having a lot of connections and industry expertise, they could potentially bring you in at a more senior role.
The other option is to go for hedge funds / small prop trading firms because they only care about results you can deliver as opposed to age / previous experience.
Hi Brian
I agree with you. the Analyst position is no longer for me. I should go for a more senior stuff. Thanks a lot for the advice!
“Make money, then make even more money, and then make even more money after that.”
Great advice… It’s sad that this must be spelled out to current/wannabe “financiers.”
You would think that most people who want to work with money would understand that actually making it is the most important part.
You made my day! Early I was feeling depressed about my “path”, but I feel better.
Great post, Brian!!!!!!!
a quick M&A question:
I notice some commercial banking have M&A division,like standard chartered bank. Is their work more like a M&A consulting for clients or getting involved in a live deal like IB, or just like large corporate to look for M&A opportunities for their own sake?
Also the life style, does it like consuling firm that have to travel a lot, or like IB have to pull all-nighters all the time or like general corporate 9am-5pm style?
Many thanks!!!!!!
I think it’s a bit of both, but I think Standard Chartered specifically might be more like traditional IBD because a few friends interviewed there recently. Hours are probably between IB and normal work hours.
Standard Chartered has a full fledged M&A team, especially in the Emerging markets. Started in 2003, its very strong in Asia (especially in HK, China & India) and Africa. Its global head of M&A sits out of Mumbai. Not sure of their operations in USA & UK though
Thanks a lot, Brian and Fishingnet!!!!
What about other commercial banking, any ideas?? With M&A head based in US?
Also about big corporates’ M&A department, working hours are also crazy??
I am now officially no longer crave for IB because of the terrible lifestyle. However, I still have interest in M&A. Is there any chance that I can do M&A while have a normal life at the same time?? Or is this a naive idea??
Thanks!!!!!
Probably not, because M&A = deals = crazy hours when you’re in the midst of negotiating at the end. Your best bet is to go to a large company’s business development team, but even there hours will occasionally be bad when you’re closing a deal.
Thanks for explain~~~
how do u define the “occasionally” wild working hours? I know it more depends on the industry and economy. But is there some general rules can apply?? like four months out of a year?
I always get the impression that business development is more related to marketing than finance, wrong idea??
I don’t have an exact # for you because it depends on how many deals you do. Basically, you are never going to make a lot of money by working without risk 9-5 the rest of your life. Risk, money, hours – pick 2.
Most of the time business development is more about partnerships and acquisitions vs. marketing.
That’s true~~~man, why I am so greedy,lol~~
I can’t help worrying about end up in doing marketing rather than finance once I am in business development, how stupid I am =.=
Does anyone have any clues on their starting Associate level pay in IBD (fixed and bonus split)??
I love your site and this post! I am glad to see that what is true in real estate is true in what i would like to switch to – if you make money you are valuable. If you don’t, you are kept around until you are costing them money.
I also love the suggestion that there is no career path but “career twisty, crooked, spiral with boulders falling down” .
I went from science degree, to starting a business to doing real estate to planning to go to mba program to eventually do investment banking.
Finding your site was amazing – i didn’t know things like “internships” mattered. As well as how important it might be to go to one of the big name schools (seems like what some friends were experiencing in Law).
I wanted your honest opinion though – I am 29, will be in business school when I’m 30. I am female, have no kids, know what it’s like to work 90 hours a week. I am not offended easily.
What would be the biggest obstacle in finding a job? How to I show in the future that I can do the job as well as any 25 year old freshly minted MBA?
Would my grades matter more then age? Gender? etc? Internship ?
I know we are all equal, blah blah blah – but in reality, when the hiring person sees an early 30s woman – what are their concerns? honestly
First off they can’t necessarily pinpoint your exact age – you actually have an advantage applying to banking as a female because it tends to be male-dominated and they often give females the advantage in recruiting. If you are concerned over age, just demonstrate how you have better leadership / management skills vs. someone fresh out of school.
Thanks for the site.
Somewhat related, but I’m currently doing asset management at a bank this summer. I might consider switching groups within AM or switching into a different division. If I get an offer, what’s the best way to ask about this? Go through HR or just ask my manager (MD, VP, whatever)? Any other general tips?
Easiest way is to go through anyone you know well in your own group and go to company-wide events for networking purposes. HR tends to be useless – your own managers will be more helpful assuming they like you.
Thanks for the reply.
So you are saying that it is perfectly fine to say “thanks for the offer, but I want to try something else out like…” as soon as I get my offer? Won’t the offer day also be on the last few days so I won’t have much time to try and interview before I leave?
If you know someone well it may be better to bring it up beforehand, as long as they’ve indicated you’re going to get an offer… really depends on how much you trust people in your group. Otherwise it’s risky to mention it before you even get a FT offer because they might decide not to give you one at the last-minute.
Hi brian,
great site! i have a question – i recently have a graduate offer for a major commercial/retail bank in their ‘business product & development’ division. before i accept, can u clarify what ur idea of this division is – its apparently a newish division after a restructure (it was originally part of premium business services which included institutional banking and markets & private and biz banking) so info is pretty scarce. on the site it says that –
“Business Products & Development is dedicated to exceeding the expectations of our business customers by offering innovative and compelling banking solutions. Our team works closely with the sales and distribution channels to provide solutions that cover all business working capital, asset finance and lending needs. We also provide strategic advisory services to Institutional Banking & Markets and Business & Private Banking.”
is it an operations-type division or is it something to do with strategy? i’m a bit confused since the ppl who work there seem to have worked at MC firms before/MC background & the pay is relatively generous (compared to the finance/acct division (8k more) and is only 3k less than institutional banking & mkts). thanks a lot!
Hard to say from that description, I don’t think it’s back office work but it’s probably not exactly investment banking either. It sounds like a combination of business development and some corporate finance.
Hey Brian, I see my comment was deleted due to being abnormally large.
Want to enter investment banking and currently in med school, not enjoying myself at all. Wanted to know how much math is involved in IBanking because frankly im not that good at it (probably stupid question I know) Is there any other good jobs that are not as math heavy? Doctors, like you mentioned have a low ROR.
I will reply in more detail via email when I have a chance, but basically the math required is very simple. You need to be good with numbers but you don’t need to know calculus or anything beyond basic algebra.
Thanks a lot! Free clinic exams for you. Just kidding, since you’re an investment banker I’ll be sure to charge you twice as much :)
Hey Brian,
What Job Title would you classify the following duties as?
“-identifies new business opportunities by researching industry, related events, publications, announcements, and working personal and business contacts
- locates and proposes potential business deals by working with potential partners and discovering/exploring opportunities
- Screen potential business deals by analyzing market strategies, deal requirements, potential, and financials; evaluates options, resolves internal priorities, and recommends equity investments
- Develops negotiating strategies and positions by studying integration of new venture with company strategies and operations; examines risk and potential; estimates partners’ needs and goals
- Closes new business deals by coordinating requirements; developing and negotiating contracts in concert with appropriate internal processes; integrating contract requirements with business operations
- Supports the operational and financial due diligence processes ”
to me… doesn’t it seem mostly like what an IB analyst will be doing or involved in? This is advertised under a firm’s Business Development division as a Marketing Role. Does that make any sense at all? Why Marketing? It seems so specific to IB analyst/associate roles yet marketing seems like a total different aspect of things. Would like to know your thoughts
To add.. do you think business development = M&A?
I would call that Business Development. It sounds like there may be some M&A-type work involved as well given their mention of due diligence. I wouldn’t really call it a marketing role.
Hi Brian,
Nice post and excellent blog, I have just found it on internet and I have already fallen in love with it!
I had IB and HF internships during the last 3 years and I recently received a full time offer from the M&A dept. of a BB. I feel PE would be an interesting exit way if I get tired of IB, but beside that I was also considering going to a Big 4 in the near future because I feel I really like both accounting and law. From your experience, is that a feasible – and meaningful – pattern in terms of knowledge acquired after let’s say 1 or 2 years of IB?
Thanks a lot in advance!
Ben
Are you referring to doing IB and then PE? Yes, that is very common.
Or are you referring to IB, then PE, then Big 4? That is not common, though I suppose you could do it. You would be “over-qualified” for Big 4 though.
No I’m referring IB and then Big4 instead of IB and then PE. Would I still be over-qualified? I have no experience in Big4 but I have always thought that they know accounting much better than I-bankers.
Thanks for your answer!
Ben
You could do that but they would ask a lot of questions on why you’re making that kind of move, because it’s usually the reverse.
Finally, a worthwhile article.
Top post.
Funny, how even after reading this article, the questions the readers are still asking relate to their insecurity of falling out of the “path”.
‘oh my job descriptions sounds like this, does it sound ok to you? ie are they on the “path”?’
‘oh i had this and that internship in the past couple of years, will that then lead me to ib, then to pe??’
‘oh do you think its ok, for me to be in PE for a while then switch?’
‘oh i feel like i have already got off the path’
So sick of narrow minded robots.
Brian thanks for the reply!
Now, I’ve been looking around the internet and everyone seems to be saying that this is some sort of holy, high-paying career. My starting pay as a General Prac will be something like 190k before Taxes. Compared to that, from what I’ve seen most 2nd-3rd level Analyists only seem to make in the mid 6 figure range; if that’s the case and they work MORE than Docs, what’s the point of making the switch?
Maybe if it was in the mid 2s or low 3s, I’d understand.
Because after 2-3 years you will make way more in finance than you could as a doctor. Yes, some doctors make more than $190K but you will not advance nearly as quickly as you do in finance, where if you do well you might be making in the millions after 10 years.
Of course, you’re also killing people rather than saving their lives, so that is one drawback.
hi there – been looking at your site to gain valuable insights. i’ve become one of your fans!
i’ve been jobless for 8 mths and counting…need ur advice here.
i started out as a PE analyst immediately after college, not doing much sexy deals as the boutique i joined was also a start up firm. basically, simple analyst work – DD, valuation, modeling, pitchbooks, coordinated meetings, developed rship with corporate management. thereafter, my dept closed down. i wanted to improve my technical knowledge so i moved to join one of the largest buy side mutual fund firms doing investment research for portfolio mgrs. Unfortuantely, was cut due to the financial crisis. since then, i’ve been sending out CVs to hedge fund and pe firms looking for opportunities. however, i was told i lack of track records in managing money. a bit neither here nor there.
i read ur post stating if a person is from equity research, it is more common further in HF. however, i came across a lot of postings for junior roles at PE/HF/VC, all required pp from IB or at the minimum ACA qualified. I meant i am also technically sound, have my CFA, crunching numbers in the past 5 yrs, presenting research findings and investment ideas to investors. i am scratching my heads to figure out what really went wrong with my CV and my profile. it seemed the market totally ignored my credential…
your advice..pls? thanks much…
I would focus on networking rather than applying online – that is your biggest problem. You need to talk to people in-person, go on weekend trips, and meet them if you want to impress. There are lots of people with similar experience, but hardly anyone does a good job networking.
thanks. but it seems so hard to get to them, not even by email, if those connections are in my phonebooks, no? im talking about fund houses in Asia.
i tried several times thru cold calling. only get to the HR then immediately get shut down. HR simply gave me hr general email address. the most i could get thru is to speak with the secretary of the MD or VP. but that’s abt it.
Well, cold-calling is difficult and takes persistence (see the case studies on this site). You might want to focus more on alumni networking and going through informational interviews if cold-calling isn’t working.
Hey Brian,
Really quick intro: Just graduated, going into IBD at a bulge bracket and got into the Real Estate team (after having spent a summer there). Call it upper mgmt pressure or whatever, I hadn’t really thought through the potential exits from a Real estate team before I signed full-time. Actually to be completely honest, I’m more interested in TMT roles because of several reasons (not exits alone).
My question: What’s the best way and time to attempt to make the switch? Everyone obv talks a lot at these banks and its a small world, so I would have to be really smart and careful if I were to do this. Really could do with some advice. Thanks
I would probably wait a year and try to make the move… best way is to network with the TMT group and also make your own group head like you a lot so that you can ask for a transfer after a year of solid work and he’ll actually support you. Even if you wanted to move to another bank it would be difficult without a year or so of experience.
Thanks Brian, I appreciate the help.
How does this work if you’re in research and want to go to the buy-side? Is it more relationship-driven since you can’t point to specific deals that generated revenue like you can in IB?
Yeah, you would have to point to how your research made an impact on the market or on investors’ decisions. Specific revenue figures are tough but influential reports can definitely make a difference (e.g. Meredith Whitney…)
Hey, Brian, long time reader of your site. I finished reading 4HW and saw your blurb at the end of the book. Good for you! This confirms my suspicions after reading that you mentioned 80/20 in one of your articles.
Err.. What is 4HW??
Actually, I must thank you because of this article as it encouraged me on thinking about the “myth”, and helped me understanding career’s progression is not as obvious as it may seem.
Also, this can be applied to almost any part of everyone’s life, as we commonly need to follow the “path” who someone established.
Yup very true
Brian, thanks for the great post, very very useful!
I graduated with a bachelor in math last year,I’m 25, took my GMAT and scored 750. I have an offer of admission to an MBA program but I’ve been asked to work for a couple of years in Finance (the area I’m interested in) prior to entering the program. In your opinion what’s the kind of position I could consider to apply for without wasting my time, as have no formal education in finance? Anybody there with science backgrounds?
Thanks!
It’s too broad a question to answer – what do you want to do? What are you interested in? Trading? Banking? PE? Trading would be the easiest place to start if you have a math background, but there’s no real “path” to other fields if you go there.
Wow that was fast!, thanks for replying. How about Hedge Fund? or Derivatives Market?
Go for sales & trading at a bank or a prop trading firm.
Cool. Thanks man!
I am an undergrad and I have two FT offers, one in equity research and one in banking. In your opinion would it be “easier” to go from IB to ER or vice versa if I decide that I don’t like one or the other?
Thanks!
IB to ER is easier
Another great article Brian! I really like how you help others and help yourself with this site. M&I is very informative, insightful, entertaining and clean. I’m writing a thesis paper on web content business and also would like to start one on my own. I will try to make it as legit as yours, but it’ll cover different (although somewhat related) topic. Could I have an interview (phone, email or I could come to wherever you are if it’s not more than 50 miles away from my school) with you regarding your creation and development of M&I? And maybe you could also please give me some adivce on my website idea? Thank you very much!
I’m outside the country / in the midst of a new product release right now so it might be hard to setup a time – I will have more time in December if you want to chat then. You can find me in the alumni database.
Hi Brian,
How would a typical career path be like if one start off as a Research Analyst in one of the bulge bracket investment banks?
Thanks,
CN
Generate money / bring in more clients –> Move up. Don’t do that –> get fired.
I have a question regarding which path I should take in my university education. I’ll be transferring to UCLA next year to finish up my degree and I have some leeway on which majors I can study. I really want to work in i-banking or PE, and I can either do a joint program that is “Mathematics/Economics” or I can do a philosophy degree with a minor in accounting. If I do the Math/Econ, I won’t be able to have the accounting background necessary in finance, but my quantitative background might be marketable. What would be preferred in your opinion, the harder major (math/econ) and possibly sacrificing some GPA points, or doing philosophy with a minor in accounting, networking hard, and keeping high grades.
Thoughts? Thanks a lot.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-major/ GPA > specific major especially when closely related
Great piece, even oddly encouraging.
Hey Brian-
I am heading into my sophomore year and wanted to know your opinion of studying abroad junior year and how it will affect my chances in landing an internship the following summer. I am looking into London School of Economics, and would like to get a summer analyst position after a full year abroad. Will the recruiting process still be possible, or should I stay in the States for interviews etc.?
Thanks!
You could do it but you’d have to recruit in London for London positions to have a good shot
Profound. I am not in IB yet I found this article equally relevant. Thanks for the post.
How practical are these paths?
Corporate Accounting => Corporate Finance => Investment Banking?,
Mortgage Banker => Commercial Banker => Institutional Banker/Corporate Banker => Investment Banker?,
Mortgage Brokerage/Real Estate Brokerage => Securities Brokerage?
1) Possible I guess? But very indirect unless you move after 1 year each time.
2) Unlikely, too many hops.
3) Guess that’s more possible than the others?
Have you heard of Blue Chip Careers? They offer 1-on-1 career consultation, Mentoring Packages, Mock Interviews, Resume Reviews, etc. They cover Investment Banking, Private Equity, Hedge Funds, Consulting, Investment Management, Venture Capital, etc.
I know there’s no clear cut path and this organization is your competitor. But what are your comments on this service? BlueChipCareer.com
No I have not heard of Blue Chip Careers. Unfortunately I can’t provide any comments on their service.
Hey Brian,
I would just like to say that I think what you’re doing with M&I is awesome. Keep it coming. I am headed into my junior year at a target Canadian school. This fall i am contemplating doing an internship while studying as well. I was wondering whether a research position with a professor relating to say valuation, IPOs, M&A etc. would be as useful for summer recruiting as say a part-time internship in IB or PWM at a boutique? The research position would give me more time for school so I could secure higher grades (hopefully) under this scheme. I would highly appreciate your input on this, as I already have some M&A experience at a BIG4 doing more due diligence and understanding the entire business as a whole, but no exposure to valuation. Thanks!
Seems like you know you need to gain experience in valuation. I’d say a part-time internship in IB may be more valuable given your goals. Not sure how much valuation work you can be exposed to at PWM.
Hey Nicole,
Thanks for the input. Do you think a research position in valuation + higher grades would be >/=/< Part-time IB internship hoping to get valuation exposure. I guess the amount of ACTUAL valuation exposure in an ib internship is quite variable and depends on the firm and other factors as well. The research position with a reputed finance professor would guarantee me valuation exposure i think. I already possess pitching and deal exposure through my current summer internship in m&a. So I am leaning towards the research position purely because i would have more time for school. Would you agree?
Seems like you have made already made a decision, and as you’ve said- the amount of ACTUAL valuation exposure in an ib internship is quite variable and depends on the firm and other factors as well – so I can’t answer your first question. You won’t go wrong either way, trust your gut.
Hi Brian,
It’a always great to read your articles. But this one was extra special. Have a question in the same context.
I am currently in a job which I hate and about to interview with a Big 4 for their vendor due diligence team. Is it possible to spin that experience as IB relevant later ? The thing is, it would be better than my current job, so i don’t want to drop this opportunity either.
Thx,
Kanishka
I’d imagine it is difficult to spin that experience to cater to IB interviewers because the skills you gain from that role aren’t directly related to IB. If I were you, I’d focus on getting interviews with mid market or boutique banks, or focus on roles that allow me to gain quantitative and qualitative skills that are related to IB.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the great post. I’m kind of in a very odd situation, have an Economics degree from a French non-target, 1 year experience in prop trading and now starting in Big4 audit- not really what I want to pursue long-term though, I kept it as a back-up plan in case nothing else works out before the start date. Guess what, well nothing even marginally more interesting worked out! I would love to break into investment management but although I went through millions of interviews, unfortunately I managed to land none. Do you think if I work in audit the move into IM will be “odd”, “unlikely”, “impossible”, etc? I’m not talking about Equity research but proper FO- portfolio construction, asset allocation,…
No, I don’t usually think anything is “unlikely” or “impossible.” In your case, I think your Accounting experience will be useful to some funds. If you are really interested in working in IM, I’d suggest you to take the CFA and manage your own portfolio (ideally you’ll have results to show). I’d also network w IMers and share w them your goals.
Thanks, I’ve been planning to take the CFA for a while now but you’re right I need to show some actual performance as well.
Do you have any experience that demonstrates your interest in investing? That sounds like your current stumbling block.
Check out this interview I did with a buy side analyst who made the jump from consulting with similar experience as you:
http://www.lifeonthebuyside.com/buy-side-equity-analyst/
It’s definitely helpful (and encouraging) to hear this guy could make it, unfortunately I wasn’t involved in any investing at the uni so it’s going to be harder now but I do trade my own funds and maybe the experience in trading can also add a bit of credibility to the reason why IM. Thanks for the response!
Very eye-opening article Brian. I too have been attempting to follow a certain ‘career-path’
Im a 17 year old college student in the UK and really passionate about a career in investment bankning particularly the mergers and acquisitions. Is there anything I can do at this age besides get good grades that can expand my knowledge and give me that vital edge in the future? I.e read a certain book or something
Network with bankers. Join an investment club at school. Read books on valuation/corp finance/investing (amazon – many suggestions). Read shareholder letters from major funds. Read WSJ, FinanceAsia, FT. Land a finance internship your first/second year in college/summer. Network w professors in finance and ask for projects.
It was a great article and I really enjoyed it specially the ending and very well said there is no such a thing as a “career path”. Every person has his own way of figuring out his career.
Thanks Maryam. I agree.