If You’re Not Confident You Can Get Into Investment Banking, Should You Apply to Master’s Programs to Hedge Yourself?
It’s always on your mind, but especially so when the economy is in shambles and shows no signs of recovery:
Plan B.
We’ve looked at a number of different options, from becoming a ski bum to becoming a cocaine addict and moving to Buenos Aires, but today I wanted to focus on one of my most frequently emailed questions:
Should I do a Master’s Program? If I don’t get into investment banking during full-time recruiting, should I go to graduate school instead? Will these programs help me get in?
Are they worth it?
Definitions
By “graduate school” I’m not referring to MBA or Ph.D. programs – those are completely different ball games, and you’re probably not considering them if you’re still in school.
And if you are, think again – getting an MBA to get into finance is only helpful with several years of experience and a Ph.D. is only helpful if you want to be a quant.
In this article, we’re referring to programs that last a year or two and result in you getting a Master of [Something] title, where “Something” is usually related to finance.
Some Answers, Please
The short answer is that these programs by themselves don’t help you, but going to a better-known school and delaying recruiting by a year could definitely help you.
When I went to career fairs at schools, Master’s students would always come up to me and say, “So, once I finish my degree I can start working as an Associate, right? How do I get an interview?”
But that’s not how it works: you don’t come in at a higher level. You’d still be an Analyst or at least starting at whatever the bottom position is called wherever you end up.
Another common question: “So if I do this program, they’ll see that I’m really interested in finance, right? And then I’ll have no problem beating all those guys with PE internships this summer, right?”
The answer, again, is no. It does help incrementally – more so if you were not an economics/finance major – but no amount of classes, school, or training will ever make up for non-existent internships.
So if these programs themselves don’t actually help you, why should you bother instead of just moving to South America for a year?
They help you when you lack either prestige or preparation (or both).
Lack of Prestige
I hate the word “prestige,” but I use it here to mean, “You don’t go to a brand-name school that most banks recruit at” (otherwise known as a “target school”).
We all know that it’s very, very difficult unless you want to spend months cold-calling, going to other schools’ career fairs, and networking with alumni.
It does work, but it’s very time-consuming and you’re unlikely to get into the largest firms like this.
Long-Term Prestige?
But the lack of a brand-name school also hurts you with exit opportunities after banking and business school admissions.
There’s always debate over how much a top school helps you with getting into a top business school, but it never hurts.
And with exit opportunities – private equity especially – firms are distinctly biased toward picking people who have had a track record of well-known names on their resumes.
Yes, you can get in without having a brand-name background, but it’s not common. Even at smaller PE firms, the tendency is to interview based partially on how well-known your school is.
But What About Networking?
Yes, networking works but networking with a well-known school on your resume works even better.
So if you’re serious about finance, then applying to Master’s programs at top schools is a good idea – even if you think you have a good shot at getting full-time offers.
Of course, if you don’t have a shot at getting into top programs due to grades or other factors, then this “Plan B” is not as viable.
Lack of Preparation
Master’s programs could also help you when you’re not prepared for recruiting.
Maybe you just got interested in finance over the summer and you’re about to graduate in a few months; or maybe you’ve had some finance internships but just haven’t had time to properly craft your “story” and figure out what you’re going to tell recruiters.
In this case, it’s still worth going through recruiting because you never know what’s going to happen – and it’s good to get the practice anyway.
Some people underestimate how random the recruiting process is and don’t understand how even tiny details can tip the scales one way or the other. Remember, there’s a reason you didn’t get an interview from JPMorgan.
Time, Not Prestige?
If you’re in this position, you’re after extra time to prepare rather than prestige – you could be after both, but if you’re reading this right now and you’re not at a target school, you’ve probably already done a ton of preparation on your own.
If you just need extra time to get your act together and you already have a brand-name school on your resume, where you go for your Master’s program doesn’t matter as much. You could just stick to your current school and complete a program there, if they offer it.
Just make sure you actually use the extra year to prepare – i.e., don’t sit around playing Wii Tennis and catching up on Lost and 24. Set aside at least a few hours per week to network, work on your “story,” and learn finance if you’re weak technically.
If You’re Already Working…
If you’re already working, a Master’s program isn’t nearly as relevant as an MBA.
Yes, you can re-position yourself with a simple Master’s program but you’ll run into problems when you hit recruiting and have more work experience than everyone else: they won’t know what to do with you.
There’s always debate over how much experience is “too much” if you want to do this, but if you’ve had 1-2 years or less of full-time work, you can probably do a Master’s program if you want to get into finance without an MBA first.
Just be aware that standards will be higher the more experience you have. And if you’re trying to make this type of move, you better have a really good “reason why” you’re now pursuing investment banking when you chose not to right out of undergraduate.
International
And yes, before anyone brings it up I’m aware that outside the US and especially in Europe, it’s common to stay in school for more than 4 years and complete the equivalent of a Master’s program before you even apply to banks.
So if you’re in this situation, the recommendations above are not quite as applicable to you.
But you could always decide to stay in school even longer or complete other graduate programs – in which case, the same tradeoffs apply.
The Bottom-Line
It’s almost certainly a good idea to apply to Master’s programs if you’re an undergraduate right now approaching full-time recruiting in the fall, if only to “hedge” yourself in uncertain times.
It’s like how you always apply to “safety schools” for colleges and business schools, even if you think you have a 95% chance at Harvard.
It does take time, so I would not kill yourself with polishing your applications unless you really have no shot at full-time recruiting.
Any questions?
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Hi Brian,
Was just looking for some advice on my situation. I am currently a first year at a semi target uni planning to work in IBD. I aim to complete an industrial placement at a bank after penultimate year and then go on to do a masters program at a strong target uni such as LSE.
LSE offer a diploma in Accounting and Finance which you complete in a year and then can proceed to do a masters (can’t go straight to accounting and finance masters due to unrelated course). Would this be the best idea if I wanted to break in or should I just aim for a masters in a different subject such as Statistics at LSE? The advantage would be it would give me an extra year between the diploma and masters to secure an internship. Also, providing I go ahead and do the industrial placement and diploma/masters(2 years) I will be 24. I presume that won’t be a problem?
Thanks for the help.
PS. Great website and the Networking guide is amazing, well worth the money.
Opinions vary but some people actually think that non-finance/accounting subjects at LSE are better: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-networking-london/ But if the extra year gives you an internship, I think that option is better. Age won’t be an issue.
should i do an mba without work exp. if i can get in?
No, horrible idea
Hi Brian,
I’ve been working for close to 3 yrs now as an analyst programmer. Coming from India, i got to know about this profession after completing my undergraduate course. (Actually during my current job i heard about this field and started inquiring about the same)
Last year I was transferred to London. So I tried my best at networking and applied for full-time positions. But my profile as an IT consultant didn’t stand a chance against people coming with finance exposure or relevant internship experiences.
So I was planning to go for a Master’s, as some people advised that doing an MBA at this point won’t let me change my career-path. Also, that getting back to school was the best option available to land an internship and further a full time position.
What would you advise?
Thanks a lot for your help.
Your website has been the most helpful resource available to me in my quest for IBD.
Hi Brian,
Looking for your advise:
Should I go for a Masters at this stage?
Will that place me in a better position for a shot at IB?
Appreciate your views on the same.
Yes definitely do a top master’s at a univ such as LSE (sorry missed this question before as it didn’t show up in the admin interface).
Hi Brian,
first of all congrats for this site! really in-depth contents!
Im finishing my undergraduate degree in Economics in good university in Brazil (4 years here) and Im on my 6 month in a part-time internship on credit analysis in an American investment bank. I like the area for its analysis and finance learnings but Im considering going to a more business-driven area (Corp. Banking, investment banking, principal investment or PE). Are there Master courses that can be usefull at this level and for this aimed path?
Apreciate any comments,
Not sure about that one but I would check http://msfhq.com/ as he has a lot of info on those programs.
Hi Brian,
I am a BSc Financial Management final year student in a non-target school.
I got some conditional offers of the prestige universities in the U.K.
St. Andrews MSc Finance and Management
Warwick MSc Programme and Project Management
Also I am waiting for the result of:
UCL MSc Urban Economic Development
Oxford MSc Modern Chinese Studies
If I can get all the offer from them, which one should be my priority? Because I have a bachelor degree in finance, is it necessary for me to study MSc in finance or economics related major? Will Oxford education be a help for breaking into investment banks?
Thank you for reading my message.
Joseph
Oxford by far due to the brand name… in the UK Oxbridge/LSE are by far the best options for IB recruiting, you don’t need a relevant major for the degree
I see. But if unfortunately I am rejected by Oxford and UCL, I need to choose St. Andrews and Warwick. Which one would you prefer?
I heard that Oxbridge,LSE,IC,UCL and Warwick are the top 6 universities that are well-regarded by the IB recruiting. If it is true, Warwick is my best choice now, right?
Yes I believe Warwick would be the best then.
I want to know why you think Warwick is better than St. Andrews? Just curious.
Honestly I don’t know as I know very little about UK schools – I was just going by what the commenter above stated. But I am not an expert.
Hi Brian,
After graduating from a top liberal arts college, I went back to my home country, took some test prep courses and applied to graduate schools. So far I have had some offers. And if I don’t hear from Columbia in the next few weeks, I will probably enroll in NYU this fall. I really hope to work in a BB in HK/China after grad school, but I have spent the time after college basically studying for GRE and CFA, working on application materials, and traveling… So if I can ever get an interview at a BB, what should I say about the gap year so that recruiters won’t see me as lazy or lack or direction or in any other negative terms?
Thank you for reading my post!
Best,
Anna
You have to make it seem like work experience… to be honest I would postpone enrollment and get at least 2-3 years of full-time work experience before even thinking about an MBA program.
Hi Brian:
I am junior student study Economics at UC Berkeley. I know people say that UCB is not a target school for ibanking and most kids from Haas go to accounting industries eventually. However I am really interested in finance and ibanking, I feel my chance is kind low since I don’t have very impressive work experience and my GPA is not that strong either around 3.4. So can you give some advice if I should go find an ibanking jobs after I graduate next year or should I try to apply for a top-tier school for a master degree in finance like MSF? My concern is that my stats is good neither for finding a ibanking job nor for getting accepted by a top master in fiance program. So what do you recommend things I can do if I really want to get into this industry?
Thanks a lot!
A top Master’s program is your best bet with limited work experience – they are less competitive than getting into top undergraduate schools
So where my gpa should be around in order to get into those top finance programs?
You could probably get in with a 3.4 but not sure of the details may want to ask Anthony: http://msfhq.com/
Hi M&I! Thanks for all the great info
Hoping someone could help me get out of or around what is perhaps the worse situation I could have got myself into by getting an MBA from a non-target school right after undergrad before I got the 3-5 years of FT Finance experience under my belt… (I know I know DUMB DUMB DUMB!!) wish I knew then what I know now…
I’m hoping against hope this hasn’t closed the door on large BB IBs for good, and I’m prepared to start as an analyst or intern, but I understand the hesitation banks will have to give me an offer…
I haven’t graduated from the MBA yet, so I just want to know if I should seriously consider not finishing the program or maybe trying to transfer to the MSc in Finance program or SOMETHING to avoid graduating with an MBA and then get the experience and try to get into a target school (ie LSE) down the road to do the MBA… (btw I have 7+ years of commercial bank experience but not IB experience, if that changes anything)
Any assistance anyone can provide is MUCH appreciated… should I just keep going, or try to fix my mistake some how?
So you did an MBA right after undergrad and then worked in commercial banking for 7 years? Or are you still in the MBA program? If you’re still in the program stop out now and do a MSc in Finance instead as you suggested
Thanks for the reply
Yes I’m currently in an MBA program and my commercial bank experience came before I was a business management undergrad.
Btw I’m a Canadian student studying in England and I’m about halfway through the MBA program now, so I’m not sure just how easily I can transfer, but I guess I have the option of not completing it… which will be a serious waste of time, money and resources… and I’m not 100% confident I can get into a top/target business school down the road… so I have to think very carefully before I walk away from this now…
Not trying to take up any more of your time, but is this really as big as a mistake as I think it is? Will it really be IMPOSSIBLE for me to get an interview if I just keep going and if I network (like a ninja, lol!) I’m sure associate level is completely out of the question, but is analyst level at a large firm even a remote possibility in either Canada, England or the states? Could I possibly apply and not mention I have an MBA?
Thing is I was already in the MBA program before I knew IB is what I wanted to do… so I’m just trying to explore any avenue I can to get out of this situation now that I know how I SHOULD have done things… I appreciate your advice and thanks for your time.
You could still do it but it will be tough at bigger firms, if you already have the MBA you can’t do much besides postpone and try to network in the meantime. And you can’t hide the degree because it will come up in background checks.
Hey Brian,
I’m trying to get a job in trading/investment banking/asset management. I went to a top undergrad school (Princeton) and I have been accepted to two programs:
1. UCLA Master’s in Financial Engineering
2. Harvard Master’s in Education
I would like to get a master’s degree to get a higher GPA to break into finance. In your view, which of these programs should I choose? UCLA’s MFE is more relevant, but I recall that you said the name of the school matters more. Any input would be appreciated, thanks!
I would probably go with the UCLA program as long as there’s substantial recruiting there, Harvard is the best name but doing an education degree might raise questions.
What if you have a reason for an education degree, for example, you worked at a tutoring center before and had passion for teaching children? Would the Harvard degree be beneficial this way?
Potentially yes but my gut feeling is that banks would all ask the same question: “If you’re interested in finance, why are doing a Master’s degree in Education?” Maybe ask people in the program first or visit and see what they say about recruiting there.
So after working at a BB in Asia in a MO role for two yrs, I have decided to go to Europe for a top MSc program in Finance.
Because I am not too interested in the current role that I am in now, I feel that my reviews will not be too positive. I feel as though my manager here does not like me too much and am afraid that this may impact me come recruiting season in late-fall (considering that this industry is a small world).
Am I thinking too much? I will be applying for FO jobs in London. Would going to a MSc program give me a fresh plate to start with?
Yes you are thinking too much – MSc program is good idea to move to FO
Dear Brian,
I recently graduated from a non-target with a BA in PoliSci and a 3.4 GPA. I am considering an MA (Russian and Eastern European Studies) from top targets because I think I have the best shot at those. By taking lots of econ courses from such programs would I be able to get into IB?
Sincerely,
Anna
Doesn’t matter but you should be doing a finance-related degree even econ is fairly distant from accounting/finance
This article (and others) is a sobering, realistic alternative to much of the literature on MBA education published by business schools themselves.
Thanks.
No problem I enjoy writing cynical, depressing content
LOL…
Hi,
I’m getting a Math undergraduate degree in University of Mississippi(obviously not a target school). I’ve taken some finance classes, so I may able to get a finance minor. Zero internship.
I’m going to be a senior next fall. But I still don’t know if I wanna get a Master degree, something like Ms of Finance.
What do you think the chance I have to get an IB job right after I graduated with a MATH degree? Considering I’m an international student….
Thanks!
Chances are low to non-existent if you have 0 internships – Master’s + internships is the solution
So you are suggesting me to get a Master right after I graduated?
Didn’t you say that it’s a Big NO-NO to do Master without any full time working experience?
An MBA with no full-time experience is bad but a Master’s program is different since you apply for analyst-level positions after that
Thank you so much for the comments…
What master program do you think is most applicable to IB industry?
MS of Finance? Ms of Applied Math?
Ms of Accouting? Ms of Economics? Ms of Financial engineering or something else?
Probably finance or accounting
Brian, I would like to say that I like your website–it’s really helpful.
Anyway, I have a question regarding my situation. I am a Comp Sci major at a target school and I have the following choices for my course plan:
1. MSE in Computer Science Submatriculation (5 years)
2. BAS in Computer Science and BA in Economics Dual Degree (5 years)
3. BAS in Computer Science and Minor in Economics (4 years)
I have no intention whatsoever of going to tech industries. Based on this, which one would you think is the best for breaking into IBs?
Thanks!
They are all the same. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-major/ If anything you should do accounting or finance and not economics
Hello, I am a Civil Engineering student in my final year at Drexel University. I have recently had a strong interest in IB and I am interested in orienting my career in that direction. At this point what would be the best next step? Should I go ahead and get an MBA, and apply for IB jobs afterwards? Thanks for any insight or advice.
Do a Master’s program (not MBA) and use that to go through IB recruiting
Hi Brian,
Another great article! Thanks!.
After finishing my engineering in Computer science, I have been working in a Search engine marketing firm as a Manager in India from past one year handling big US clients. However, I am very enthusiastic about getting into IB as I simply love finance (especially M&A Advisory). I know that I don’t have relevant work-ex ( and just 18 months of experience) to get into a good MBA program at US or Europe so I have decided to go for MS in Finance at LSE or MFE at target schools in US. I have a few questions.
1. Will I have a good chance to get into good MSF programs at LSE or similar schools with a high GMAT score (700+) but with average academics and a non-finance related work-ex? Am I at a disadvantage with non-finance work-ex?
2. What are my chances of getting through a BB (even as an Analyst), even if I get through the admission process and finish my Masters in Finance from LSE or other such schools. I heard Asians have tough time getting a job in Europe or US due to Visa
issues.
Thanks!
1. You have a decent shot – see: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-networking-london/
2. Really depends on your interview skills, if you can get internships during the program, etc. so hard to generalize. Lots of people there cannot network or talk to people, so you might be able to use that to your advantage (see link above)
Hi Brian,
I am interning at a top BB in Ops this Summer but have been invited to a one day event at another BB where I will be introduced to IBD representatives/mock interviews with them etc.
As I am looking to go into IBD in the future/next Summer, my question is: Would taking a holiday day from my Ops internship be greatly frowned upon? I have quite a good relationship with my manager so I don’t think he would mind too much, and I will obviously offer to work some weekends/late nights to catch up.
Just wondering if it is a bad idea overall and could affect my interviews at the BB where I am currently interning as I will be interviewing for IBD there next year. Will they speak to my manager and if so, would he say anything bad?
Thanks a lot!
No just take the day off as it will help you get the IB offer next year. They don’t speak to anyone except to verify you worked there.
will be to the top office soon. i need to rinse the beamer off at the c r wash
Hi Brian,
I am a junior at a non-target school in the Midwest. I have a 3.8-3.9 GPA and I’m set to graduate in 2 years. I have no internships on my resume as I chose to go to school this summer.
My school lacks location and prestige. I only have one contact, who works at Goldman Sachs. However, I’ve heard it’s next to impossible to get internships there, even from ivy league schools. Should I try and apply to smaller boutiques or get a M.I.F. at a more prestigious school?
Thanks!
Do both, spread a wide net, see the case studies under Recruiting at the top
Hi Brian,
I am currently doing an undergraduate degree in computer science at a non-target school in mainland Europe. I would like to continue with masters in Computer Science in the UK, possibly at Imperial College or Cambridge if I get in, otherwise Edinburgh or Southampton.
I find Investment banking and sales/trading (algorithmic trading especially) fascinating.
Would choosing Computer Science instead of Finance or Accounting for my masters impede my chances of getting into either of the fields mentioned above?
Any thoughts on computer scientists in IB in general?
For trading it’s fine but for IB better to do finance or accounting
Hi, Brian
I want to pursue a career in investment banks. Afterwards, I may move to financial advisory, private equity or asset management firm. Considering the school prestige and curriculum, which program do you think better fit my career planning? One is Master of Analytical Finance in Lehigh University (a high percentage of math and computing courses). The other is Master of Business Finance in University of Maryland(Robert H. Smith Business school, typical finance courses).
Many thanks!
p.s I have submitted my questions several times, but no one appears on the website. Have I successfully submitted my question?
I think Maryland is better there
Whats up bro. Im working with Crowe Horwath Malaysia in Audit Assurance Line. Im training for ACCA right now. Does this qualification ACCA plus Accounting Degree (Hons) and experience in Audit firm can help me to secure a job as an analyst or assoc in investment bank?
No. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/degrees-certifications/
Hii
I completed my undergraduation from Indian Institute of Technology( IIT), India with a good GPA (9.1/10).
Plan A :I have an offer from University of Edinburgh, Msc Operations Research with Finance. Does this degree help me getting a finance job?
Plan B: Should I do my Msc in financial enginnering in us schools next year? All I can get this year is an IT Experience or if If I am lucky, I might get an unpaid Internship in Deutsche bank or JP Morgan ( through recomendations).
What do u think I should be doing? Plan A or Plan B? In either case I l work for 4 or 5 years and then go for an MBA in top B-schools.
I would go with Plan B unless you can’t afford it – you really need better access to recruiting / recruiters outside India.
Thank you
Hi, I have a very good quantitative background and hope to apply to Stanford’s Masters in Financial Mathematics or Berkeley’s Financial Engineering. I read that the starting salary from those schools are in the range of $150,000-160,000. Working as a quant, how would this salary change down the road? ie, how would it compare to an investment banker MD vs quant MD (if there is one). I am just curious if the quant pay tapers off after awhile because it starts so high. Thank you!
Not really sure there but yes I would guess the quant tapers off and never reaches what an MD will make due to no client contact.
Hi Brian:
For a while, when I was applying to masters programs in management and finance, it seemed like I was the only one (not too many helpful blogs out there like this one) – so thank you so much for your insight.
I’m in the preparation category you mentioned above – I graduated from NYU this past May with a degree in Political Science and minors in Economics and Business. I only realized too late in the spring semester that I want to get into finance (and after looking at job descriptions, employers, and reading up on career paths this summer, I am definitely sure) I have the following choice to make:
LSE – Masters in Management (2 years, $100K)
Univ of Maryland – Masters in Finance (1 year, $50K)
Cost isn’t that big of a deal for me, but I’m worried that if I go to LSE, I won’t know about finance as much coming out of the program as I would coming out of Maryland. However, as you mentioned above to go with brand name, I understand LSE is very highly respected and might just get me the analyst position I want (regardless that I will only be taking a few classes in accounting and finance there as part of my degree). I’m trying to let employers decide by applying for internships / entry-level in DC and London, but no luck as of yet. Any input would be helpful – thanks so much!
Also, anybody else, please feel free to chime in!!! Any feedback would be helpful, especially if you know anything about MSc Management programs or LSE. Thanks in advance
I would go with LSE assuming that you actually want to work in London afterward.
That was my intuition, but because I lack a solid undergraduate background in finance (I’ve taken a few courses in accounting and financial markets), I am wondering if that will matter as much coming out of LSE vs. a program less well known but highly focused on finance. What do you think? (Oh, and as I didn’t make this clear before, I am not so focused on investment banking in particular – In fact, I’m very flexible in terms of where I start, be it in equity or even loan syndication, say in a analyst program at Citibank or a similar firm)
I don’t think it will matter too much if you look at some of the articles/interviews here referencing LSE.
Gotcha. Thanks for your help!
Hi,
I recently graduated from Wharton Undergrad (finance) with a 3.8+ GPA and previous I-Banking (boutique) experience. I would like to break into BB bank but am unsure of how to exactly do so.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
-Scott
Start networking like crazy and read everything under Recruiting at the top.
Thanks for the info. Do you think it’ll be as hard given my background?
Not as hard as it could be but it is 100x more difficult since you’ve already graduated
So what are investment banker’s perceptions of quant guys? Most quants work in sales and trading and they dont usually get banker jobs so do bankers think of them as nerdy? smart?
Nerdy, smart, decently rich but not as prestigious as bankers.
If I’m part of a finance rotational which is 3yrs long – would it be better to go to a top Msc Finance earlier or is it better if I finish my 3 rotations and then go to the MSc Finance? I am aiming to get into banking or investment analysis.
The only benefit of the rotation program is that I will be able to do FP&A my 3rd rotation (which some have said is pretty good experience to have on the cv if I were to go for banking)?
I am currently finishing up my 2nd rotation and I have the option to defer for one yr. Should I just go to grad school or should I complete the rotational program? Just worried that if I stick to this rotational for another yr, it will be tough to change fields (as I will have 3 yrs of experience vs. just 2). Thoughts? The MSc Finance would be a top target in Europe.
Tough call but most people would say MSc is better to do earlier rather than later
Hi,
First I want to say thanks for the great site. I’ll be a senior next year, and although I have strong grades from a target, none of my internships have been in finance. I was planning on continuing another year to get a masters in finance, in part so I can get an internship next summer.
I’m a little afraid that banks might look unfavorably at the fact that I’ll be graduating before the internship. Is it any harder to get an internship as a graduating senior going to grad school than as a rising senior, or are we on an even playing field?
Thanks!
It is harder but still do-able as long as you clearly indicate that you’ll still be in school
Hi,
First I would like to thank you for the great information on this site. I am a rising senior at a decent but non-target private school (USnews ranking around 35), majoring in both International Politics and Finance. 3.8 GPA, great GRE score. I can finish the International Politics degree within the next year but have to stay for another half-year if I want to complete the finance degree as well. Currently thinking about an IBD career and just had an IBD internship in GS at Asia this summer.
I planned to go for a Master degree after college, and there are two kinds of options.
1. Master in Public Policy/ International Relations/ International Affairs in top schools like Yale, Columbia, and Stanford, (Some do have a economics/finance track)
2. MSF in schools like Vanderbilt and Washington University in St. Louis
So here are my questions.
1.Which kind of program do you think will help me more in this case? A better name or a more related major?
2.A few programs in category A also encourage students to have couple years of working experience before entering; will go straight into a program like that be a bad idea, just like going directly to a MBA program?
3.Do you think I should stay to grab the Finance Bachelor Degree first since I may not have a closely relevant major in Master degree as well?
Thanks a lot!!
1. Better name. 2. Not really, doesn’t matter much since you’ll still be applying for analyst roles. 3. Not worth the extra time/effort.
If someone gets admitted into a Master’s program, can they do an internship before starting their master’s program? (Can a person do pre-Master’s internship/post-Master’s internship for recent grads)? Or is internships only for currently enrolled and attending students?
Yes that is quite common, and lots of “Pre-MBA Programs” exist.
hie brian
i just need to find out what sort of Masters programs are we looking at here, that will better align me in the IB working platform?
Um, Master’s in Finance programs? Don’t understand the question.
Brian,
Looking for some direction.
Background: B.S. in Finance from non target in Florida, good GPA, graduated December of 2010. Worked full time through college – retail assistant manager, collections, then member services at a credit union. I just took a position doing debit/credit portfolio and electronic services analysis at my CU. I have no IB internships.
1.) Coming up on recruiting season, will I have a tough time explaining why no one heard of me last year if I try to blend in with the 2012 graduating class? 2.) Would killing the GMAT and shooting for a top business school be a good investment or a waste of time with what would be 1 year “professional” experience?
1) Yes I wouldn’t even try to blend in. 2) Need more experience first so don’t bother for now.
Thanks for the reply, one follow-up.
If my long or short term goal didn’t include staying at my credit union, hypothetically, would you say it’s a viable strategy to go for a MSc Finance, network, and reenter the first time analyst pool?
Yes, that’s viable.
hi Brian,
I have completed my under grad degree from india ( bachelors of commerce,3 year degree) with 66%. I was also pursuing chartered accountancy along with under grad( one can get a chartered accountancy degree right after high school in india, unlike other countries.).I will complete chartered accountancy next year and plan to study further right after getting the degree(ie i wont have any work experience).
Of all the subjects that i studied for chartered accountancy, i find finance to be the most interesting and plan to pursue a careeer in the same field.
what will be the most suitable option for me to get into a finance related(Investment banking) career (as in which degree and which univ considering my academic background), masters in finance/financial engineering or an mba?
will it be wise to do an masters in finance after getting an chartered accountancy degree?
if you talk about degrees then go get an MBA at a top tier targeted university (likes of Wharton, HBS, UPenn)
CPA helps but not as useful as CFA though I don’t think either helps much in your case
as I’ve reiterated many times, its networking that matters – network like crazy and land interviews then you can skip all of the above!
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/recruiting-in-a-down-market-part-3-networking-newbie-to-networking-ninja/
thanks for your inputs!
would like to know another thing, considering my academic background, will i be able to make it to a top tier targeted university for an mba in finance( specially as i’ll have no work experience when i apply)?
thank you
Not familiar with MBA programs in India so can’t really say but it depends a lot on your activities outside work, how you position yourself, etc. – probably have a shot at top programs in UK/US.
hi Brian.. I’m an older worker..well late 30s with IT work experience. Getting a masters in finance degree from a top school. Not an Ivy League school, but GS just started recruiting here. Interested in VC or M&A work in the technology industry. Don’t mind starting at the bottom and working my way up. What are your suggestions on getting a job in these areas? I’m good at communicating and have great people skills, along with technical skills.
If you are interested in VC/M&A work in the tech industry, I’d suggest you to focus on your industry expertise in tech when you market yourself in interviews/to people. I’d also suggest you to dig out a database of VC firms as well as contacts of bankers who work in tech M&A and email them individually to express your interest and schedule informational sessions.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/break-into-venture-capital/
Hi brain, I am a recent graduaed with economics and business management degree with no real experience in IB. I want to go into IB as a career. I just got into a master in Strategic planning and investment, i am wondering should i take it and will it help to get into IB??
Thanks
or can anyone else help me with this because I need to reply to their offer soon thanks
You should trust your gut re the decision. I can’t decide for you.
As the article states “The short answer is that these programs by themselves don’t help you, but going to a better-known school and delaying recruiting by a year could definitely help you.” If the school is a target school recruited by banks, it might help. If the school also has an extensive network of alumns who work in the banks, it might also help
If you are really interested in the program, I’d go. If you’re asking whether this program will sure-fire get you into IB, no. It all depends on you – how you market yourself, your network, your credentials and your previous experience (in finance). I’d also suggest you to join an investment club at the school if you decide to go – it will help you in interviews
Thanks Nicole. I got into newcastle university, would you say it is a better known school? and I am recent graduate with 2:2 in Economics and Business Management, i know it is not great but with this master in Strategic planning and investment, it will increase my skills in the field and more employable for IB right?
Not necessarily. The economics & business skills might help though I’d suggest you to focus your efforts in landing an internship w a bank to build up your modelling/valuation skills. I don’t think Newcastle is a target though I may be wrong.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
Hey Brian,
What a great article, only if I had this 3 years ago. I need help/advise from you guys. I have landed myself into this position, which is quite complicated. I so want to pursue IB/PE but have I have already got my MBA from a Non-target school in 2008. After which for the last 3 years, I have been working with the Corporate Finance group (not Corporate development) group of a large fortune 500. Before my MBA, I have a bachelors from India and 2 years of work experience, some of which is in Acquizitions. I have been networking like a ninja (cold calling and meeting with people) and have got some great traction but nothing has converted. I need your advice. what is the best option for me at this stage.
1) Keep netwroking hard and hopefully I will land something. I have been targeting MD’s of the Industry I work in.
2) Get a Masters in Finance from a top school and hope to break in
3) In one of your other articles you suggested AnEx the institute that provides part time IB internships for people like me
4) Pursue a 2nd MBA (maybe a 1 year MBA) from an institute like INSEAD
5) Or is there anything else you can think of
Your advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks as always.
1. is your best bet. Don’t know why you’d want to do another MBA/MF.
hey brian,
i have completed my engineering this year(2011) with not very good gpa.i would be giving gre this december ,actually i am interested in doing master in finance.what are my chances of getting a good college?and what is the scope for it?or should stick with masters in engineering only?
Hi Shantanu, we’d love to answer your questions. However, I think you should find other sites that provide college admissions service to answer your question
Hi Brian,
I am currently working as a Tax professional(dealing with US Tax) in one of the Big 4 companies.
CFA has been my dream, did not get through final interview in Investment Bank in placements so I acepted the Tax profile.
Now that I have 2 years of work experience is it advisable to proceed with taking up CFA. But I am from a tax background so will this background be considered as an experience if I start with CFA or apply for MS in Finance.
Waiting for your reply….
It depends on your goals. If you want to go to the buy side take the CFA. Mike might have more insights to your question
Thanks Nicole. I was looking at Singapore University of Management for MS in Finance. Any comments on this?
Don’t know much about schools that offer MS in Finance so no comments.
I do know this though – when you choose a school, choose one that is close to where you want to work. It helps when you go for interviews etc.
The tax background will not qualify as experience for the CFA program, but that doesn’t mean you can’t take the exams. I’m a fan of both MBA/MS and CFA, which you can complete at the same time through the CFA program partners. But that’s my bias since I have both.
Some more info, if you are interested:
http://www.lifeonthebuyside.com/mba-vs-cfa/
Thanks Mike. My plan is to complete CFA 1st level and take up MS in Finance(Looking at Universities in Singapore). Any comments?
If you’re planning both CFA and MS, consider the CFA partner schools where you can complete both at the same time:
http://www.cfainstitute.org/partners/university/Pages/cfa_program_university_partners.aspx
Is an MS in Finance more difficult if you have not had prior undergraduate experience in Finance/quantitative classes?
I go to an Ivy League school, a target, with a 3.75 GPA but am in the College of Arts and Sciences, and will be graduating this year. I have had pretty good internships and summer jobs, but not in finance. Would you think that I could get into a top MS of Finance program, and would this ultimately help me land a top i-banking (analyst) position.
At the moment, although I have networked with a few bankers I think many of them are wary of my non finance background.
I love the site. Thanks in advance.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
This article addresses your concern. I think you should network as much as you can during this recruiting season and try to land interviews –> job. Don’t worry about what other bankers think. Yes people are wary of non finance majors but it is not uncommon for non-finance majors to break into IB.
I am on the same boat as a lot of people here. I’m a senior at a semi-target (Berkeley) with a 4.0 GPA in social sciences. I am going through full-time recruiting half-heartedly and considering a Masters in Finance.
If I don’t get any interviews/offers for full-time recruitment, should I seek a summer internship with the juniors and apply for a Masters in Finance?
Thanks
Not sure if banks would like to take you in as an intern w your junior classmates; think some banks explicitly state they don’t want seniors in their internship classes. Some banks are ok w seniors though. Why don’t you just give your 100% to your recruiting efforts now? Try your best and land a full time offer; don’t give yourself any excuse and detach yourself from the outcome!
Thanks for all the advice Nicole.I just got my first batch of rejections and am just licking my wounds!I don’t have any finance background but am going through Breaking into Wallstreet program crazily. Thanks for the encouragement and for maintaining such a great website!
Anytime! Don’t give up!
Hey, Brian
I was wondering if I could seek your advice in my situation.
At the moment I’m in my second year in Middlesex University doing ‘Banking and Finance’, but recently have begun to doubt that it’ll help me break into IB due to the university not being so prestigious.
If that doubt is plausible, then would you recommend that I should consider applying for a masters program or work for some time and get an MBA then try my luck?
(I’m 22, right now if the age will matter.)
Other than that I’ve just got one year of volunteer work experience at LloydsTSB.
So should I try my luck after my course or consider post-grad education?
Yes I would do a Master’s program at a better-known school – MBA is too costly and time-consuming to be worth it at this stage.
Thanks for the input.
But I was looking at post-grad courses at better known schools (the ‘target schools’) and I have to ask which sort of masters would you say would help my chances: finance, economics; or even PPE* (Politics, Philosophy and Economics).
*It has some branches of the course I could apply to:
- MA in PPE, in general
- an economics stream
- a politics and philosophy stream
(Link for reference: http://www.york.ac.uk/pep/postgraduate/taught-courses/)
In short: which post-grad degree do you feel I should be gunning for to boost my chances to get into IB?
Or would any do just as long as I get in a better known school i.e. Oxbridge, LSE, York, Cass Business School or other ‘target schools’?
Definitely finance, no point in doing anything else. School name matters most but doing a Master’s in something besides finance makes little sense unless you already have a really strong finance background / work experience.
Thanks for the input!
One more question, Brian, my pre-degree academic record isn’t quite the best; its would be lower than the typical applicant.
Would that hinder my application much even if I went to a ‘target school’ for post-grad education in finance?
No, they don’t care about your pre-degree academic record as much as long as your recent grades are ok
Would a strong finance background to supplement a BSc/MSc resume include any work in finance such as accountancy or IB in specific?
What about other work experience alongside finance experience such as accountancy such as office work or carer experience?
I don’t quite understand your question?
Brian,
I have done my graduation from India and have worked for 2 years in KPO. Am 24 yrs old now. Would it benefit me if I go for a Masters in Finance Prog now ? I will be 26-27 by the time i graduate ? Is it advisable to start with Investment banking so late ?
A masters/MBA in a target school might suit you in your case and in this economy. I’d still suggest you to network w bankers and sniff around for opportunities and people who are looking for your skills / background !
Nicole,
I am already looking out for opportunities in the market. Was asking if it would be pursue this as an alternative in case I am not able to hit something in next 6 mths. Considering that too much experience after grad is also a hindrance in getting an analyst role.
Also, pls answer regarding my age ques.
Thanks,
Kanishka
Kanishka, a masters is an option. Age wise you may be a bit older but 26-27 is still acceptable if you can accept that most of your analyst friends will be 22-24.
Honestly you may have experience w KPO but such experience is not directly relevant to IB so I wouldn’t worry about you having “too much experience”
Thanks Nicole !
Anytime!
Hey Brian,
I really like iBanking and am set to start at a BB in Toronto. I really want to break into a top US MBA school in a few years (H/W/S), is iBanking a good way to get into one of these schools?
A lot of my friends are working for MBB’s and they tell me that they have a lot of support mechanisms that helps them get into Harvard for their MBA’s. I dont expect iBanks to have this, but I wanted to ask you if you think I would be at a disadvantage when applying.
Thanks
Quite a few bankers apply to these schools so it will be challenging to stand out as a banker. You will also have to be involved other activities and interesting ventures for such schools to take note of you. Some stellar bankers (analysts) get into such schools after the 2 year in the analyst program but you’ll hv to be a star analyst
Don’t know if you will be at a disadvantage since I don’t know your background but I hope the above helps
Hey Brian,
Here is my situation: I have an economics undergraduate degree at a mid tier school in the University of California system. GPA throughout college was around a 2.7, but have a couple of internships related to finance.
How does this plan sound: apply and get into a small masters accounting program in California to get GPA >3.5, while also networking with alumni to increase my chance of getting into the Big 4/F500, then use that experience + GPA to apply for a better masters in finance program and rebrand myself for investment banking? Or should I try another strategy?
Thanks
Yes this works though the most direct way (if you really want finance that is) is to network with people in finance now, see if you can help them out in any way and work in a bank/financial institution (be it a trading floor or IB dept)
Hi, I am currently in my final year doing a BSc in business from University of London. I am interested to get into IB but because my degree is not exactly from a top tier school in UK I am considering to do a MSc in Finance from University College Dublin. Is it advisable?
Not sure if University College Dublin is a target so I don’t think it would help immensely. I’d focus on networking
Do analysts in IB typically receive a higher starting salary with an MSF compared to someone with an undergrad degree?
Not necessarily. Perhaps you can negotiate though pay is pretty standard at analyst/associate lvl
Hi M&I:
I am a recent business graduate (B. Mgmt w/ finance) from a Canadian non target and currently working in commercial banking and realizing IB/ a much faster paced job is where I want to be! Since I have missed recruiting for this coming year I am strongly considering working for a full year in order to atleast gain some experence in banking and then pursuing a Msc Finance programme in the UK next year. I am just wondering what the chances of landing an IB position (in either London or back in Canada) are if I do not attend a top school (ie; LSB, Oxford, Cambridge etc)? Thank you very much
Tougher if you don’t attend a target school. You’d then have to mainly focus on networking yourself
Hello,
I’m 22 and been working in a small FoF in HK for a year and half (internship to finish my bachelor, then recruited). My bachelor come from a non-target school in France, its management, though I’ve been doing accounting and finance subject for two year in exchange in Asia.
I would like to know,
1)If doing a Msc in a target school next year, (Starting at 23, finishing at either 24 or 25), would be a way for me to get into IB despite having no IB work experience?
2)Should I try to find a internship in a boutique doing corporate finance for six months before the program start or continue with my job to get two years of exp on the CV ?
3)I’m Swiss/french, but my work is in Hong Kong. Does top school in Asia, say Hong Kong U, National uni of Singapore, Peking U are considered target school ? Should I aim at regional top school or the international one ?
4)How important is the language requirement in IB? I work in a company full of chinese and all our work is in English, they use chinese only the PE side.
Thanks and Regards
Thomas
Ps: This website is great
1. If you get into a top tier school this might increase your chances but will not guarantee you a job esp since you don’t have real IB experience
2. Having corp fin experience is very helpful if IB is where you want to be. Whether you should quit your job & intern w a boutique is your call. I’d suggest you to land yourself an IB gig/internship first then you can decide
3. No. International ones.
4. In HK, mandarin is essential in IB. There might be a few roles that don’t require Mandarin but not many.
Thanks for the quick reply.
4. If I understand correctly the level required is nearly native in IB ?Or I’ve only seen such a level in Chinese (confirmed by native) from foreigner having studied the language full time for 3-4 years. Would it make any sense to go to China study it for one year full time, then part time with internship/work. Then go back to IB ? (Assuming its possible)
Or is it better to focus on the carreer development?
Thanks and Regards
4. Yes if this is what you want. Mandarin is useful wherever you go so even if you don’t go to IB you can use it in other industries. Whether you want to live in China or not is another story though.
I enjoyed my time in China ;)
The only thing that hold me back from going to learn Chinese in 2012 is the career path:
I wish to attempt a Msc from a good school. Or I wonder if spending two years off from Finance won’t play against me (making it harder to land a top Msc or a Job). What do you think ?
My biggest “assets”, probably, are the network I started to build and my working exp longer than most people my age. I’m a bit afraid this will vanish if I spend 2 years in China (less people from Finance around).
If I learn chinese, at 24 I’m fluent, but then I will just be an average guy, with average working exp, from a non-top tier school and correct grade. Ok with a network in China, but probably not finance-related.
Am I seeing the picture a little bit too dark ?
I can’t really say for you re whether you shd do the MSc or not. If you want the experience & knowledge go ahead but MSc doesn’t guarantee you a job
True.
No. I think you’re right because you should leverage on your strengths. Learn Mandarin in HK then