How to Get Into Investment Banking from an Unknown State School with No Finance Background: Case Study
Continuing my efforts to eliminate the “All your advice only applies to people who went to Harvard and have 4.0 GPAs!” comments, today I’ve created a case study of one reader – and previous resume customer – who got into investment banking despite coming from an unknown school with a minimal finance background.
I can’t give names of schools, banks, or people – but everything you’re about to read is both true and immediately actionable.
Q: Ok, so how did you get into this industry in the first place? I mean, people from Ivy League schools with top grades are struggling to get into banking in this environment, and bulge bracket analysts are struggling to get PE opportunities. What’s your magic bullet?
A: I got interested my freshman year, but I had no finance background and I was at an unknown state school where hardly anyone went into the industry. We had no on-campus recruiting.
My first step was getting an accounting internship following my freshman year – but I told the MDs there that I was actually interested in investment banking, and they got me referrals to local boutiques and merchant banks in the area.
I saw a few ads for merchant banks on my school’s website, but rather than applying online, I decided to call them directly and tell them I was interested. After I spoke with someone live, I submitted my resume and then called the next day to follow-up and make sure they had received it.
Then I got into a pattern where I would spend most of Saturday researching boutiques and local firms online, look at transactions they had done, and then cold-call them on Monday and Tuesday of each week. I’d try to email at least 5 banks per day.
I just kept calling until I got a response – sometimes it took many, many tries to get through.
I eventually landed an offer at a local bank from my sophomore to junior year – then I went through recruiting this past fall, got an offer at a well-known boutique, had it rescinded due to the economy, and then finally got another full-time offer recently.
Comments: Notice how he started calling banks rather than just applying online – remember, no one reads applications submitted online. Also pay attention to how he got into a regular schedule for his networking efforts, and how he kept at it every day until he got responses. Too many people either wait until the last minute, or don’t try at all to begin with.
Q: Wow, sounds like quite the journey. Coming from that kind of background, you must have faced a lot of “objections” in your recruiting efforts. What were the top reasons bankers said “no” to you and how did you overcome them?
A: They had a lot of concerns, but I’d say there were 3 main “objections”:
- “You’re from a no-name school – why should I hire you over the guy from Princeton or Wharton?”
- “You have a pretty good (3.8) GPA – but what does that mean coming from your school? That’s equivalent to a 2.0 at an Ivy League school, right?”
- “Why didn’t you go to a better school? You seem like a smart guy, I’m sure you could have at least gotten into a better-known state school.”
To overcome objection #1, I pointed out that it’s the person who does the work – not the school. There are plenty of people from top schools who are privileged and unmotivated, but they knew I was hungry and eager to get in.
To answer questions about my GPA, I pointed out that I was also working 30 hours per week and paying for rent and my tuition – so I was actually working way harder than many other students and still getting good grades.
For objection #3, I said that I couldn’t afford a “good” school – I didn’t come from a privileged background and I had to finance my education by myself, so I just went to the best place I could given my budget constraints.
Comments: These are great ways to overcome the resistance he faced. Whenever you get questioned about your credentials, you should always point to what you’ve accomplished rather than the prestige (or lack thereof) of the names on your resume.
Q: Ok, but how well did that story resonate with everyone? Some people in finance are not so receptive if you don’t come from the “standard” background.
A: Most people accepted the story. I did run into a few people with Ivy League undergrad / MBA backgrounds who couldn’t understand the concept of coming from a family that couldn’t afford $50,000/year tuition, but most people “got it.”
Comments: Sometimes you’ll run into people who just say “no” no matter what you do – if that happens, you need to move on and not try to win them over, because your time is better spent elsewhere. There are lots of people who are willing to listen to your story.
Q: You must have found a high percentage of “nice” bankers, that’s pretty amazing.
How did you actually approach firms differently from how someone at a top school would?
A: I was a lot more persistent, for one. I never stopped at just speaking to HR or to an administrative person – I’d always try to speak with at least an Associate or VP, and if they didn’t call me back, I would call back 2 days later to get someone else on the phone.
I made sure every phone call resulted in either speaking with someone real, or getting a real banker’s name and email address.
Comments: This is a great point – if you’re not collecting names, email addresses, and phone numbers when you’re cold-calling places, you’re wasting your time.
Q: What was your response rate when you were contacting these firms?
A: It started out at almost nothing, and I wasn’t sure why since I felt my approach and cold-calling skills were fairly solid.
I thought the problem might be my resume, so I had you edit it for me and then my response rate jumped a lot higher – by the end I was getting responses from around 50-75% of banks after I had a stronger resume.
Thanks!
Comments: [Insert subtle message right here that blatantly sells my resume editing service, before the price goes up again on July 1.]
Q: No problem, I can’t take all the credit for that one though.
One point that a lot of readers struggle with is getting contact information in the first place – how did you do that? When you cold-call, sometimes they’re very reluctant to give you anyone’s contact information or put you in touch with bankers.
A: If I couldn’t find it on the website, I would call the secretary to ask about it and say, “Who can I speak to regarding recruiting / employment here?”
Sometimes they would transfer me, and sometimes they wouldn’t – one “trick” I learned is that when I got transferred to voicemail, I would immediately hang up, call back, say I got disconnected, and then just ask for the real contact information.
They were more likely to give me real contact information (the actual first and last name, spelled out, of the person in charge of recruiting) on my second try – since I said “I got disconnected,” they assumed it was a problem on their end.
The other reason I did this was to ask for the secretary’s email address – once I learned what the company’s email format was, I then applied it using the recruiter’s first name and last name she just gave me.
I also got some referrals from the alumni database, though there wasn’t a lot there – in those cases, I just emailed the alumni first and made sure to point out where I found them.
Sometimes I also just did simple Google searches – “@ubs.com,” for example, would give me contact information for anyone there who put their address online.
Yet another method: I looked through old job postings on Doostang and Monstertrak, and wrote down names of firms I wasn’t familiar with.
On Doostang, I looked through users’ profiles to find firm names as well – this gave me names that weren’t listed in any boutique database online.
Comments: I love his trick for getting real contact information by claiming he got disconnected the first time – you should learn this and apply it to every cold-call you make.
Online searches tend to be hit-or-miss, but it’s worth a shot if you have the time – just make sure that you’re not spending all your time looking for email addresses online, since calling is almost always a better option.
Q: Ok, so when you were emailing these people you came from a relatively unknown school without much finance experience – only that 1 accounting internship. Did you do anything to make yourself stand out or get their attention more effectively?
A: In my initial emails, I tried to make myself sound more experienced than I actually was. I would position myself as having been in the market before, and that I wasn’t just an undergrad looking to break in.
I would always write something like, “I’ve worked at XYZ and XYZ firms before in XYZ industry, and I’m interested in learning more about opportunities at your firm” to avoid sounding like too much of a student.
Comments: This is a really good approach since he was coming from an unknown school. If he had gone to a top school, it would be good to point that out (“I’m currently a junior at Wharton and have worked at XYZ firms before…”) but when you don’t have an impressive name, it’s better to leave it out.
Q: One of my most common questions is, “How do I follow-up? How often do I send emails to check in with people I’ve already spoken with?”
I usually say, “Don’t email or call them every week, but make sure you’re staying on their radar,” but that’s more applicable if you’re developing long-term relationships.
Did you do anything differently to follow-up since you were focused on cold-calling local and smaller firms?
A: After I emailed a firm with my resume, I would wait 2 days to follow-up with a call. Then I’d wait a few more days and email them, then call again, and then if there was still no response I would email them to suggest a date and time for a call.
If I still didn’t get a response after 4 separate follow-ups within the span of a week, I would wait 1.5 – 2 weeks and then try again with a series of follow-up calls and emails within a week.
Some banks didn’t respond at all, and some did – there wasn’t much of a pattern to it, and it was more of a numbers game than anything else.
Comments: This is pretty aggressive follow-up, but it worked well for him since he was calling and emailing specifically for internships. I would not be so aggressive if these were just informational interviews, as it might freak out the people involved.
Q: You were pretty successful in your recruiting – is there anything you would have done differently, looking back on it now?
A: I would have started earlier, for one. It’s never too early to get started – even if you don’t know 100% whether or not you want to do banking, it always helps to start building relationships early.
Outside recruiting, I would have focused more on “fit” questions rather than spending all my time studying the technical ones.
You’re more likely to get tons of technical questions if you’ve had a previous banking internship. I found myself well-prepared on the technical side, but stumbling when it came to basic “fit” questions like “Tell me your strengths and weaknesses.”
Also, lower your expectations. If you expect everyone to say “no,” or you expect the worst in interviews, then anything better than that is a success.
Comments: Everyone always seems to have a different story when it comes to “fit” vs. technical questions – but I agree with him that lots of technical questions are more likely if you’ve had previous banking experience.
Q: Sounds good. Any parting advice for students still looking for internships or jobs, or for anyone out of work right now looking?
A: Keep at it. If you don’t get something right now, don’t give up until you have something lined up – a friend of mine was about to graduate with nothing lined up, but then he went around and started offering to work for free.
That allowed him to be way more competitive – and he got several unpaid opportunities, which could turn into paid options later on.
Also, look at my own story – I had my offer rescinded after I got it, then went around and continued to recruit until I found something else this spring… you just never know, and giving up too soon is a huge mistake especially when you’re dealing with small firms that recruit year-round.
Comments: Well-said – there’s no substitute for persistence. Offering to work for free can be a good idea, but mostly if you’re an undergraduate – it doesn’t work so well for MBAs or anyone with more experience.
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Is a Hedge Fund internship better than a Consulting internship or vice versa if I am unable to obtain an i-banking/pe internship for the summer? Should I try cold-calling boutiques instead? (I’m planning for summer analyst recruiting this upcoming winter)
It depends on what you want to do. For IBD, hedge funds are probably better… consulting might be better if you’re not 100% certain yet.
You could still try cold-calling at this late stage but it will be tough since most firms are no longer actively hiring.
I’m hoping to get into IBD. I forgot to mention that the consulting position deals with sourcing potential M&A opportunities to emerging growth companies.
Do you think I can somehow spin that in my story and would that be better than the hedge fund internship?
Consulting might be better in that case.
Another great read for us non-target school grads!
Kind of related qustion:
I recently graduated (high Gpa but non-target) and accepted an offer for an internship at a pharmaceutical startup for the summer since I really had no other options at the time (figured the ground up exposure and B2B sales would be good experience i could spin later on). Then today I was contaced by a local boutique I-bank that i had cold emailed and he wanted to schedule an interview. I told him my situation and that i would like to keep in touch, what would be the best way to follow up on this and try to position myself for this fall? I was thinking of trying to meet up sometime this summer but i feel like an informational interview might be a little weird for the situation. Thanks!
Just tell him in the fall when you’re ready to interview… maybe just send a quick update email over the summer but keep it very casual until you’re ready to speak to him and interview for real.
I went to a small private school that had no on campus recruiting. I would echo most of the above comments–the key is to make as many friends and contacts as you can in the process. I hesitate to share my secret, but I will anyway for discussion purposes since it wasn’t mentioned above. I happened to go to school near a large city, and banks happened to recruit at a fairly prestigious school down the road, so I managed to get a hold of their recruiting calendar and then called banks to seek permission to show up at their info sessions. Pretty much no bank said “no” to me showing up although I would say there were two outcomes either:
1) the recruiting team gave me a swift “no” since I wasn’t from the school (these people were the super elitest types that just couldn’t get over the credentials, as mentioned above) or
2) it ended up working really well as the recruiting team was impressed by my initiative; in fact I’d say in certain cases I had a leg up since HR sometimes alerted them that so-and-so from a non-target kid might show up, so I was already on their radar and they were looking for me after the info session
Even in the most successful case it can be impossible to get on the interview schedule on-campus depending on the school/system, but even if that was the case, the firm would agree to interview me if I traveled to New York
If every non-target kid did this, it obviously wouldn’t work in the long run, but it worked for me and I though I’d throw it out there.
What I would like to hear about is M&I’s thoughts on PE/buy-side ops for non-target undergrad kids. I’ve been ranked at the top of my analyst class every year and have a lot of credibility inside my firm, but I’ve found that PE shops almost never go for kids who went to non-target schools no matter how good their analyst performance was. I suspect it’s a suppply/demand thing (why take a chance on a non-target when you’ve got a ton of good ivy leaguers who were in the same class). I also feel that certain b-schools still place a lot of emphasis on your undergrad school…
I would never have asked permission first, I just show up. But then, I piss off a lot of people so who knows hahaha.
Yeah, PE is tough without a good name. It’s a prestige-driven industry and you usually need a solid name to get into the top places.. exceptions apply, but it is so much smaller than IBD that it’s tough without a great school. Which is why people often go back to b-school to get into PE.
i think this should be the make or break factor
“Then I got into a pattern where I would spend most of Saturday researching boutiques and local firms online, look at transactions they had done, and then cold-call them on Monday and Tuesday of each week. I’d try to email at least 5 banks per day.
I just kept calling until I got a response – sometimes it took many, many tries to get through.”
As with nearly anything else in life, if you want it badly enough you will find a way to get it.
I don’t believe anyone who says, “I can’t do…” until they have spent 5,000 hours on it and tried every single strategy/approach/company out there.
“I can’t do” really means “I don’t want it badly enough.”
I’ll be working at a top prop trading firm full-time this fall (DRW, SIG, Jane St, CTC, etc)
I’m still interested in eventually going into IBD or PE in the future, even if the money/bonus is lower. how are top prop shops viewed by the BBs or PE firms? and say if i worked for 2-3 years as a trader at a top prop firm, will i still be starting as an analyst at a BB or an associate?
thanks!
Could go either way there… generally the top places are respected, but bankers are distinctly biased against traders. I think your level would depend on the economy and how that firm is doing – you’re more likely to be an Associate at a smaller bank vs. if you went to a BB following your years at the prop shop.
Audit Accountant v. Tax Accountant:
M&I… which of the two accounting backgrounds above do you think mirrors the work of a financial analyst more closely? Do you think that either one works more closely with bankers?
Neither one is particularly close, but audit accountant is probably closer because you do more financial statement analysis whereas tax is more niche.
Very nice article…I’m really happy for him!
:-)
Great article & advice!
“Sometimes I also just did simple Google searches – “@ubs.com,” for example, would give me contact information for anyone there who put their address online.”
– Not sure if this works anymore, tried this personally. I think google blocks these types of searches on purpose to stop spam crawlers…
But will certainly give “call back got disconnected” strategy a try! =)
Try Yahoo!
Hey random question. I might be interested in a career in IB. this summer (im going into my junior year) I am doing an internship at Northwestern Mutual up in MA, how would that help in next years internship recruiting process?
It’s marginally helpful (better than being a pool boy for example), but less helpful than something like banking, private equity, etc.
Wow, what a powerful story! This is a great article that boosted my morale.
I am looking forward do start my cold calling sessions.
M&I.com keep up the great work and articles!!!!
Good luck!
Hey M&I,
I actually got a question. I had an internship interview (sort of ’cause it wasn’t very technical or fit ) with a boutique last month (probably unpaid). At the end of the phone conversation, the MD told me to let her know my decision at the end of this month to work things out. So I assume that I got the opportunity (she didn’t specifically say I was accepted or anything like that). I told her my decision that I’m very happy to intern at the firm this summer yesterday and asked for the start date and stuff. But she replied and said “still thinking about it and will let me know right when she decides”. What does that “still thinking ’bout it” mean? Is that about just the start-date or about me being offered to work at the boutique? This is tricky and I’m a bit worried ’cause if she was just tryin’ to avoid telling me that I can’t work, then I would have to start cold-calling/emailing other boutiques all over again n it’s kinda late now.
How do I handle this? What do you think?
Thanks a lot.
That sounds very strange. I would call her back and say, “I appreciate the offer and am very excited to work for you – however, I do need to respond to a couple other opportunities, so I need to have a definitive answer within the next week.” It sounds like they’re interested but not sure if they actually need to hire someone, so I would try to get them to decide by giving them a deadline.
M&I,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I emailed her yesterday saying that I’m happy n excited to work for them this summer, since she told me to give her my decision by late March. During the conversation last month, she mentioned that they have interns coming every summer. So, I think they have some sort of internship program. The problem is I just don’t know what is implied in her reply to my email asking when I can start as she said “still thinking, and will let me know when she decides”. So confusing.
But yeah, I will definitely try to give them a deadline to see where the problem lies.
Hey M&I,
I did what you suggested and contacted the MD. What she told me was she hasn’t made up her mind yet about my qualifications compared to other applicants and will contact when she finally decides. It sounds like I’m not totally out or in yet. Do you have any suggestion to improve my chance at this point?
Thanks a lot for your advice.
There’s not much you can do now other than to follow-up periodically and make sure you stay on her radar
This story kind of resonated with me. It’s the summer after my junior year (at a large state school, went here for financial reasons) and I will be interning at an asset management firm for the next 10 months. I’ve got a 3.5 gpa, 1600 SAT, decent activities/leadership/etc, however, this internship will be my only notable and relevant work experience. The city and state that my school is in has a moderate amount of banks, mostly midsize (think Houlihan, Lazard) and my school is the best in the area. However, there is not much national clout behind the name. Do I have a decent chance at banking with the big boys, or are the HYS kids going to beat me out?
It really depends on how much networking you do. If you get to know a lot of people at a lot of banks, you will get interviews there; if not, then you won’t. As mentioned in the article, some bankers care a lot about your school’s name but most don’t care as long as you’re qualified.