Why You Weren’t Selected for That Interview at JP Morgan
It’s a question I’ve been getting a lot lately.
“Why didn’t I get an interview at Morgan Stanley New York?”
“Why was my friend selected for JP Morgan Houston but I was not?”
“Why did I get an interview at CS Hong Kong even though my resume had a typo in it?”
Interview selection at individual banks is incredibly random, and you never know what someone’s biases will be.
Yes, if you “bankify” your resume and avoid common mistakes, you have a higher probability of getting an interview. But that doesn’t mean you’ll actually get one – and sometimes even if your resume is awful, you might still get an interview.
Example #1: A Real-Life Jack Bauer
Once, we were sitting around reviewing resumes and someone stumbled across a guy who had served in the military (in a country where it was a requirement).
Alone, that wouldn’t be too impressive – but this guy had served in several well-known battlefields and listed them all on his resume.
One of the bankers in the room was also ex-military so this immediately jumped out at him – and even though this guy had 0 finance experience and his resume was marginal at best, he still got an interview on the recommendation of the ex-military banker.
If you know how to commandeer vehicles, pitch books should be easy, right?
Example #2: My Disagreeable Roommate
We had just received a resume from one of my former roommates. He was transitioning from wealth management to investment banking, and he had all the elements of a successful resume.
I took one look at it and told everyone in the room we shouldn’t interview him.
As roommates, we got into arguments over the smallest issues and there was no way I could ever see myself or anyone else working long hours with him.
You could argue that living with someone is different from working with him, but in banking you basically live with your co-workers.
Example #3: That (Fake?) Private Equity Internship
One time we saw a lot of applicants from one school had all “interned” at the same “private equity” firm. Normally we only spent 30 seconds per resume and never did any outside research, but seeing 5-10 people all with internships at one place raised some eyebrows.
None of us had heard of this firm, so it was either fake or another J.T. Marlin.
We did some digging online and found that it was real – but it was also inaccurate to label it “private equity.” It was more of a “Well, my rich uncle just gave us $5 million to invest so let’s look at some cool startups in the area” type of place.
We did not give an interview to anyone who claimed they “worked on LBOs.”
Example #4: The Failed Fraternity Guy
One guy who had some solid experience and a few banking internships had just submitted his resume.
When we were reviewing it, someone else in the room recognized him – it turned out this same guy had (unsuccessfully) rushed his fraternity a few years back. In fact, it was more than unsuccessful – everyone hated him and wanted nothing to do with him in the aftermath.
There were also suspicions of illegal activities on his part (use your imagination). Deciding that the risk was not worth it, we did not give him an interview.
Example #5: The Guy Who Wouldn’t Take “No” for an Answer
This one appeared in the comments the other day but it was in an article from over a year ago, so I felt it would be worth highlighting here:
“My situation was very bad…I had no prior work experience (neither industrial nor financial), I had no student exchange programs (highly rated in Europe), I had no stellar grades…BUT I had a genuine and strong interest for IB.”
Ok, so far you have an uphill battle…
“I wrote a full-of-passion investment banking cover letter, and they called me for the 1st round; my motivation impressed the Associates I talked with and after two weeks I was called for the 2nd round (a business case followed by a discussion with a VP, and a traditional interview with a Director).
The day after they offered me the job, although other candidates had better resumes (prior Internships in Bulge Brackets!).”
Nothing is impossible.
So What Can You Do About It?
If the recruiting process is so random and you get accepted or rejected for reasons beyond your control, what can you actually do about it?
- Spread your net wide. A great resume is only effective if you apply everywhere, from the tiniest boutique to Goldman Sachs.
- Play nice with others. Finance is a small world, and someone not liking you elsewhere often comes back to haunt you here.
- Don’t be afraid to be interesting – random facts can help you quite a bit (but please, don’t do a video resume, at least not in finance).
- Oh yeah, you still need to have a good resume anyway. Luck won’t help you everywhere, even if you are a real-life Jack Bauer.
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This article is awesome. I am currently doing a full year exchange at Beijing University- Guanghua School of Managment from Queen’s University in Canada. I am going to South Korea for Spring Festival on the last week from Jan 27 to Feb 1. Depending on your schedule in South Korea and China (if you are coming to Beijing), I would like to arrange time when I can meet up with you.
Yeah think I’ll be gone by then unfortunately…
Bummer. I was in Seoul for the first week of January; now back in the States.
the whole interview process is so weird to me…
Due to one of my own mistakes through my school’s career website, I didn’t submit cover letters to 3 of the bulge brackets that I was looking at…and I still got interviews from them.
Also, I made a mistake by submitting resumes to multiple divisions within a bank, like asset management and investment banking to better my chances. I thought this would screw me over because I wouldn’t look like a focused individual, but I got 3 interviews to 3 divisions of a bank…
JH,
what school do you go to ? Are youy applying for internships or full time?
i go to an ivy league and am applying for summer internships…it might be due to the fact that i have a very high gpa
Great article. Two questions, unrelated to the post.
1. Where does Perella Weinberg stand in your eyes? Lazard is the boutique that gets all the glory, but with Perella’s star-studded cast, what are your thoughts on it compared to other boutiques?
2. Are Emory or Michigan considered “target” schools for the banks?
Thanks.
It’s definitely a good firm – I don’t rank banks as a general policy, but it is on par with other top boutiques.
Emory and Michigan are both semi-targets – some banks recruit there, but less so than at the Ivy League, for example.
Go on. Rank the banks….just this once. You know you waaant toooo.
Seriously though: I would be interested to hear you thoughts on how working for Perella compares with say working at JP Morgan or somewhere like Jefferies. The particular criteria that I am interested in are the type of work you, the hours, contact with senior bankers and clients and the prestige.
Work/hours is basically the same… the main difference is that the clients and deals tend to be smaller and it’s all M&A vs. the industry/product groups you would get at a larger bank.
To be perfectly honest, once you work in the industry long enough you realize it’s all the same everywhere… no place is really that different.
The MAIN difference is that bigger places will make it easier to move to large-cap PE firms and HFs.
I managed to get a off-cycle internship with no previous IB by being lucky.
The good news is that you can create your own luck and increase the chance of a positive outcome. Make sure that you apply EVERYWHERE. Also dont just fire away an email and sit on your arse…phone them up. It helps to make a personal connection. If you hear nothing back for a month phone them up again. Ask for the person you last spoke and see whats going on. I think this was a key factor for me.
I also think that it helps to have something quirky on your CV. Mine finishes with my interests; Kitesurfing, Real Time Strategy gaming, electronic music and painting. It was rather fortunate that the big cheese who interviewed me in the final round has been kitesurfing. Be specific about your interests and dont put thinks like “reading”, “travelling” or “music” – its a little too bland.
Yup, great advice. People always underestimate how much getting personal and persisting really helps out… and the value of quirky anything on your resume.
Great article, as always. I was just wondering what you thought of frats? Were you ever in one? Is there any reason to join a business frat instead of a social one?
And I think it’s pretty awesome that you’re in Korea (I was born in Pusan). Which brings me to ask, are you Asian? Chinese? Korean? It’s cool if you don’t want to say, I was just curious. I guess I just always imagined you as a white guy but recent posts have made me ponder.
Thanks again!
Yeah I think business frats could be helpful, depends a lot on the specific school/frat though. Social ones are more for fun and not as good for networking, at least with finance… can be helpful in other fields though, lots of friends found non-finance jobs via frats.
I’m not Asian.
After doing the analyst thing for two years and moving to a PE firm or HF, are the hours or pay better or something? I’m still unclear on why everyone is so intent on making this transition. I’ve heard you work more at PE firms and get paid less. And at HFs you work less and get paid less. What’s the deal?
From reading some of M&I’s earlier posts, I’m gonna guess that he would answer it like this: At PE firms, you’ll likely work about the same – maybe a little less – and make a bit more money. But the difference in pay gets larger as you progress. In a HF, you will likely work less, make the same to less, and the pay as you progress is much more volatile – you could be one of those fund managers getting a billion dollar bonus, or you could make nothing.
Yeah that’s a good summary. Do note that at some HFs you still work a lot, though – some large ones are noted for being really intense, more so than banking.
It really depends on the fund. At the biggest ones, you get paid quite a bit even as an Associate – at the middle-market and smaller ones it will be more than what you made as an Analyst but less than what IBD Associates make, even starting out.
As you move up the difference starts to get larger.
In general the hours will be -a bit- better but not nearly as much as some people would have you believe. Nothing in finance gives you a normal lifestyle (and at some of the biggest places, hours are actually worse than in banking).
Do you know any good tips / blogs / sites about careers in asset management?
Not offhand… maybe look under some of the sites on wallstreetoasis and see if anything is there?
I’m a junior in college who’s going to apply for business schools next semester. I worked for two years before college in a education consulting firm based in Boston (yes, right after high school) and worked in the New Business Team related to online Services. Do you think admission officers will take my experience seriously? I heard that they usually value post-college working experience only…
I’m aiming at a buy-side job if I can get in a decent business school. So do I have a shot to get into buy-side companies considering my working experience? I really appreciate your attention.
Honestly it’s pretty tough unless you’ve had post-graduation, full-time experience… they don’t really value internships that much. I’d suggest postponing business school if at all possible because you’ll be competing with people who have 5-10 years of experience.
hey M&I,
I have an interview with specifically a Debt Capital Markets Group tomorrow, and since it was not mentioned in your guide. Does the approach to this interview change compared to preparing for a more general investment banking interview?
Thanks
Its very similar, main difference is that they will focus more on “Why DCM?” but they are unlikely to ask much in the way of different questions for any kind of entry-level/summer interview.
M&I,
What would you say is a common path of progression to becoming a senior banker. It seems they have all of the fun while we are grinding away some crappy 600 x 10 cell data entry task.
To get to MD level do you have to start as analyst (maybe) have break and do an MBA and then get straight back into banking or can you skip some of the steps by doing some other (maybe even non M&A – perhaps Sales or trading etc) alternatives? I just cant see myself grinding 7-10 years.
First off, even at the senior level it’s something of a grind… turnover is still pretty high. Sure you get paid a lot more but it’s just as stressful, if not more so, even though the hours go down.
Most MDs start out from MBA programs and come in as Associates, though there are exceptions… some banks were trending toward promoting from within a lot more, at least until recently.
But in general you can’t really “skip” steps on the way from Associate to MD – at least I’ve never heard of that happening. If you go to a different field they will usually not give you “credit” for it.
Hi M&I,
I recently applied to a whole bunch of investment banks both in Asia (I worked there last summer) and New York. I have bb trading experience from my last summer internship and the same gpa as last year but for some reason I managed to secure more interviews last year with fewer credentials than I did this year. I understand the markets are a lot worse, but I still only managed to get 2 phone interviews. Does having prior work experience significantly increase your chances or does it not really matter that much? I go to the University of Florida which is a non-target I guess, so I suppose that adds insult to injury?
That is really strange… prior experience should help you a lot. Most people without some prior experience have been struggling this year.
I would assume that it’s mostly because of the market in your case – if you already had a BB internship, your school does not matter as much.
I will be applying for an internship at Goldman Sachs & Co., J.P Morgan, and other bulge bracket banks next summer. I am currently an undergrad at the Haas School of Business (Berkeley), which impliments a grading curve that results in 5% of the students recieving A’s. This means that I may just barely reach the 3.5 GPA benchmark. Does the investment banking community know about the ‘Haas curve.’
Also, I believe that Haas would be a target school since it is in the top 3 undergrad b-schools, but I don’t know. Would it be a target school even though it is not ivy?
I would relax, they know some schools are more difficult than others.
And yes, last time I checked, banks recruit at Berkeley… seeing as I went to your arch-rival school.
I go to Northeastern University, and am currently in the middle of my 6 month internship at MFS Investment Management. I have a 3.4 GPA and a 3.8 GPA in my concentration classes (Finance/Accounting). What do you think my chances are of landing my next 6 month internship at a bulge bracket firm? And even if I don’t do one of my internships there, when I apply after I graduate, how much do they value something like two 6 month internships at MFS compared to a 10 week summer internship?
The main issue is going to a relatively non-target school – if you have a really good network you have a good shot but you need to focus heavily on that. 6-month internships are good but not valued as highly as a traditional banking summer internship.
Hi M&L!
I have a short question regarding the first paragraph of the cover letter. If I had talked to someone in the info session or met someone from the company I’m applying for, but I talked/met him a while ago (1 months and upto 1 year), should I write a line saying that “I went to such-and-such place and it was a pleasure to meet you” kind of sentence, or should I just skip and head directly to the second paragraph? And also, what if the person that I know is not an associate or analyst, but VP or senior associate with at least 10 years of experience? (I met them only once and I don’t personally know them, and I happened to have their business cards) Thanks!
You can add that line but don’t say “you” unless you’re actually writing to that person directly… if you are that’s fine. Doesn’t matter how old they are, still include it to remind them.
I am going to the final round of the associate recruitment process. Numbers of interviews have been gone through with VPs and Associates both locally and overseas. What is the difference between interviewing with the fund founders and the VPs/Associates? What are the keys need to pay attention to for interviewing with senior people like the founders?
Thanks.
Not much, interviews with VPs/Associates are likely to be more technical whereas ones with founders will be more fit-focused. If it’s for PE they will focus heavily on why you want to be there vs. other fields in finance and whether or not your story makes sense.
Hey M&I,
I’m an undergraduate looking to apply for junior summer analyst internships next summer. I was wondering if applying to multiple divisions at a bulge bracket (IBD and asset management) would hurt my chances. I am more interested in asset management but I want to “spread my net” as wide as possible.
Also, if I apply online (or send my cv to a generic recruitment email), is that an automatic ding? How would I go about applying to some of the smaller MM/boutique firms (say Moelis or Greenhill) that don’t recruit at my semi-target school?
Thanks.
No, but keep it to 2-3 at most so you don’t look too wishy-washy. You can apply online but its a better bet to get in touch with a real person at smaller places, chat for 15 minutes and then send your resume through him instead.
Thanks for the response. By “real person” do you mean an alum who works there or is any person at all okay (such as HR, hiring director, etc.)? Because my school doesn’t have any alum at these smaller firms
Alum are ideal but HR is fine if there are none
Thought I’d also chip in my 2cents. This is for Australia but, don’t know what the differences are.
Was recently offered M&A at a bulge bracket (my foot in the door). Candidates were flown in from different areas of the country, some had honours, some even had Masters, and some had worked at other Investment Banks and overseas. Majority were from the biggest Universities in Australia, and many candidates had a degree in Law.
I on the other hand had only a double degree in Finance and Accounting, a 3.4 GPA, and work experience has been predominantely in accounting. My friend who is in a similar situation to me also got an offer in Global Markets.
I spent no longer than an hour on my application and dealt with my interviews whilst working full time so could never properly prepare.
I think it ultimately came down to luck and that the analysts thought they could get along with me. The article says it quite well. Be honest about yourself, and if you’re committed to your career goals, eventually someone will find you and realise you’re exactly the type of worker they want. No use pretending, that might not be what anyone is looking for, and lying will only come back and bite you. Also when you land your job, you’ll probably be better fitted and a lot happier – which would be very important for a job that basically becomes your life!
Thought I’d also add, my application also had a spelling mistake in it too.
Everything you discuss and explore is so incredibly on the ball, its truly mind-blowing.
I am that “guy that wouldn’t take no for an answer,” except that I’m a girl. Everything you have said is so, so true about networking, following up, and general standards for composing oneself. I really don’t know how I, with no banking experience, a mediocre GPA (though at a good school), and no finance background whatsoever am now interviewing for 4 incredible investment banks in a terrible hiring climate. It really is about 95% the motivation and picking up things quickly, even if late, and those “its rare, but it could happen” instances are extremely true, for all the hopefuls out there.
Honestly, your posts are like those informational’s where you ask a million minute, detailed questions and still have a million left though it might be inappropriate to ask. Though informational’s are still crucial, you seem to answer every sub-question of a question I can have.
Thank you so much!
Glad to hear it – congrats on the interviews!
Sure, that’s more appropriate than a lot of pre-MBA experience other people have.