How to Spin and BS Your Way to Success in Investment Banking
“It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”
Not sure why you want to do investment banking?
Don’t know what you did in your last job besides watching YouTube?
Haven’t the faintest clue what your “story” is?
Then you need to learn how to spin.
Lying is bad.
But spinning – making yourself seem more impressive than you actually are – is essential.
Just think: it even got a President elected. Time to learn his tactics.
Why Do You Need to Spin?
Because it’s not always in your best interest to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
A job interview is not a trip to the court room. You’re there to sell yourself – not to tell the jury the whole truth.
You need to spin not only for resumes and interviews, but also when you’re networking, and even for business school admissions.
And once you start working, you need to spin in order to play the office politics game correctly and avoid the pink slip.
The Ground Rules
You can’t lie about easily verifiable facts.
You can’t make up work experience, fabricate your GPA or SAT score, claim that you know how to say “Goldman Sachs” in Mandarin when you don’t, or make up that degree that you never quite finished.
It will come back to haunt you even if you get away with it temporarily – banks conduct background checks just before you start working.
There are a couple items – like job titles – that fall somewhere in the middle. In a lot of cases you don’t have an “official” title, so “Summer Intern” vs. “Summer Analyst” doesn’t matter much.
It’s hard to spin your answers to technical questions – so if you have no idea, it’s better to admit it upfront.
So you have to exercise some judgment – be careful about anything that is easily verifiable or anything that the other person knows a lot about.
Finally, avoid generic “spin” answers – like saying you “Work too hard” as one of your “weaknesses.”
What Should You Spin?
You can spin your way to success in a number of areas: networking, resumes, interviews, and on-the-job.
Here’s how to do it:
Omission of Facts
Didn’t get a return offer from your summer internship?
No one needs to know until you get asked specifically about it – and when you do get asked about it, just Blame a 3rd Party (see below).
There are some facts you can’t omit: “forgetting” your GPA raises red flags, as does months or years of unaccounted time on your resume.
But you need to omit some facts because:
- Sometimes if you say too much you come across as negative, which is a big no-no in interviews and once you’re working.
- If something does not help you, there’s no reason to say it. Remember, you’re there to “sell” yourself.
Hedged Exaggeration
This is “hedged exaggeration” rather than “exaggeration” because you need to be careful about how and what you exaggerate.
Write that you “Negotiated $50MM higher purchase price for client” on your resume and you’ll get called out very quickly – but write that you “Supported senior bankers in negotiating $50MM higher purchase price by revising valuation” and now you have an exaggeration rather than a lie.
Re-Adjusting the Focus
Studied abroad in Paris for a year, but spent 360 of those days drinking and 5 days studying?
Did an “investment banking” internship but spent 90% of your time fetching coffee?
No one needs to know the whole truth.
Focus on the 5 days, or 10% of your time, where you actually did something worth talking about.
Blaming a 3rd Party
Didn’t get an offer? Had an unusually low GPA your first year in school?
That’s ok – it wasn’t your fault. It was because you didn’t fit in with your group’s culture – or because you had some family/personal issues but then learned how to focus and greatly improved your GPA in later years.
You also need to turn the negative into the positive with this kind of spin. Rather than focusing on how much you didn’t like your internship group, talk about how you like the one you’re interviewing with right now a lot more.
Pure Confidence
What you say often matters less than how you say it.
Try it yourself: make up an absurd story about your background and introduce yourself to strangers, keeping a straight face and showing no hesitation when you tell them your story. I do this all the time.
They may be skeptical – but they won’t call you out if you show no hesitation.
Put yourself in uncomfortable situations, and the more you do it, the more confidence you’ll develop.
How Do You Spin?
Ok, now let’s take a look at some examples of how to spin your way to success using these strategies.
Omission of Facts
Networking Situation: You’re explaining to an alumnus why you’re interested in investment banking, but you only got interested recently and don’t have a long history to point to.
Solution: Don’t mention this “fact.” Instead, talk about how you’ve known a lot of friends in the field and how you were always interested, but became even MORE interested when… [Insert recent event here].
On-the-Job Situation: You finish your work early and need to send out materials to your team, which they need by tomorrow morning. But you’re afraid to send the email too early or they might give you more work.
Solution: Omit the fact that you finished early. Either log in remotely at midnight or go out and do something else, and then come back to the office and send everything late at night.
Interview Situation: You get asked about the “company” you started last year. It didn’t go anywhere and you decided to shut it down because you lost interest – but you don’t want to seem like a failure in interviews.
Solution: Don’t mention how you lost interest – and never give revenue/profit figures. Just say that you learned a lot from doing it and had some success (building a product / getting publicity / customers) but decided to pursue other opportunities instead – which you never would have found out about had you not started the first company.
Hedged Exaggeration
Resume Situation: You don’t have any “results” for your most recent internship, and you’re worried that it will seem like you’ve done nothing at all.
Solution: Borrow other peoples’ “results.” You may not have directly impacted business, but you “supported” or “assisted” the senior guys who brought in additional assets under management, or that new M&A deal, right?
On-the-Job Situation: Your staffer asks you if you have any “bandwidth” to help out with some menial administrative tasks, and you don’t have anything urgent to do… but you still don’t want to do it.
Solution: Say that you could help but you need to finish a client-related task for your SVP. He doesn’t “need it” by tomorrow but he sure would “like to see it” by tomorrow.
Re-Adjusting the Focus
Interview Situation: You get asked to talk about your investment banking internship, but all you did was create company profiles for a potential client and a lot of administrative work. But you don’t want to sound like you did nothing.
Solution: Say that you “Helped out with industry research, and worked on a potential buy-side M&A deal.” Position what you did as a potential deal that never came together rather than admitting it was grunt work.
Networking Situation: You’re meeting with an alum and you’re talking about your experience studying abroad in Japan. He asks about your language skills, but you spent all your time there at all-you-can-drink bars hitting on the waitresses.
Solution: Make up a joke to get around having to answer the question directly: “Language study? I was too busy studying sake. Oh, and I actually had a lot of tough classes that semester so I think I’ll stick to English for now…”
Resume Situation: You have a 3.3 overall GPA, but a 3.7 GPA in your Finance major – but you can’t round the 3.3 to a 3.5.
Solution: List your Finance GPA first and make it bold – then include a semi-colon and feature your overall GPA less prominently.
Blaming a 3rd Party
Interview Situation: Your group gave offers to everyone except for you because you came into work late every day and did nothing. You’re interviewing for another banking job right now and you can’t admit this.
Solution: Say that you didn’t fit in with your group’s culture. But everyone in this group seems much better.
Networking Situation: You’re speaking with an alum and he asks why you haven’t taken any finance classes before this last semester if you’re actually interested in the field. The “whole truth” is that you only became interested recently.
Solution: Say it was always on your mind, but that your major had some tough requirements. Turn it into a joke (works better if the alum also had the same major) and say that you could only pull yourself out of the library / out of the lab recently.
What Next?
Get out there and practice.
We all have skeletons in our closets – even if you haven’t gone Patrick Bateman on anyone, there are questions you’d rather not answer.
Figure out what your top 5-10 most “awkward” questions are in interviews or networking, and then think about which of these strategies you can use to spin your answers.
And feel free to use more than 1 per answer.
Pitch curveballs – not the plain fastball.
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I adhere to a policy of “technical truth”. Only say what is technically true, and you will never be guilty of lying.
Well, you’re no fun…
LOL…
my technical truth is just “spin” taken to new heights!
You mentioned that if one had a sub-par gpa in their first year they can say they had a personal issue they were dealing with. Will they want to know in detail what the situation was?
If you say a “family situation” or “family emergency” and mention something about a close family member they will not ask… I would be really surprised if anyone dug in further after that, it goes against common sense.
I include a bold finance gpa on my resume..But my overall gpa is really low(3.0). Would you suggest removing the cul gpa and adding a “gpa since junior year” instead?…which is higher than the overall gpa.
You need to show overall GPA on there somewhere, even if it’s low – if you don’t list it, they’ll assume it’s a 2.0
Hey, great article! What happens if you majored in both finance and poly sci. If you have a 3.9 in poly, can you list “Major GPA 3.9″ while stating that you only majored in finance above. Like –
BS in Finance
Major GPA 3.9
Eh I would not do that, you need to list overall GPA somewhere… and specify which of your major GPAs it was.
Great article!
But I must ask…… WHY all the Patrick Bateman allusions???
Because he’s a true banker!
You like Huey Lewis and the News?
No idea who that is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwicLgOGJOI
HEY PAUL!
Awesome article once again.. I can really see some of the practical real life issues handled in here. Kudos!
Regarding the FAQ section referring to GPA rounding.. It says you can round up to “0.9″. I assume you mean 0.09, like 3.41->3.5? Not trying to be a stickler and I would hope no one applying for these jobs is rounding 3.1s to 4.0s (although, I’m pretty sure it has happened at some point for whatever reason). I just feel in the interest of GPA info it’s an important note because it seems junior bankers are essentially obsessed with GPAs and use your site as their main reference. Its common sense, but worth pointing out I think.
Good point, I just fixed that and updated the FAQ page. And yes, I meant 0.09.
Common sense is always recommended…
How hard is it to get into a HF’s like Citadel from asset management firms like Blackrock as opposed to GS/MS? What about large cap PE firms? Is it a huge disadvantage to be from asset mgmt?
Also, as far as asset management is concerned, what are the firms that have GS/MS like exit opportunities into PE or HF’s?
Thanks a lot.
I honestly don’t know enough about asset management to say – but I would assume that the largest firms probably give you the most options. Maybe look at this list:
http://www.pionline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071001/CHART/70927004/-1/DataPresentationStore
It’s quite tough from asset management – not very common. PE is similarly difficult – it’s just not common and so recruiters don’t focus on finding asset management people for PE/HF.
Thanks for your response. So would you say that it woud be relatively easier to get into large cap PE or HF from a Bain Consulting as opposed to a Blackrock or GS asset management?
Honestly it’s really tough from either of those backgrounds. A bulge bracket bank is your best bet. Bain probably makes it easier to get into smaller PE firms though.
Great article. People underestimate just how much you can get away with as long as you can talk the talk. Perception is reality and banking isn’t brain surgery: if you can talk eloquently about doing something you probably can do it.
My biggest whooper was 6 months unemployment, I claimed I took time out and volunteered at an organic farm working as a shepherd, then tied minding sheep into project management methodology. I actually visited my uncle’s farm for a week.
Yup, it’s all about the spin. If I ever went back to the corporate world, I would have a GREAT story about everything I’ve done since I left banking… the sheep angle is quite creative haha
bachelor of finance.. bachelor of commerce.. is there much difference?
You have to be careful with degree titles – I would list the official one.
If I worked at a no-name firm, will they bother to call the company and actually ask what I did? I honestly might have spent a combined three days worth of time doing something useful during my two months there, and my bullet points all relate to these three days. Also, if I know for a fact that another intern did something significant, should I say I “helped” or “completed” the task too. I mean, the only way I can get caught is if they call the firm and speak directly to my boss. I’m not lying about my title, just fabricating a little about what I did.
How well does your boss know what either of you do? If he’s not too in the loop about who does what, you’re fine as it clearly falls within the realms of the “technical truth” as described above.
Usually they just call to verify dates so I would not worry about this. For background checks they may ask you to give references, so then you obviously don’t want to list your boss. But otherwise it’s hard to say what you really did as long as you don’t make any ridiculous claims.
Well, I go to a community college-yes, I know. The thing is I plan on transfering next year. However, I’ve recently learned my school which is in Manhattan’s Financial District has these seminar/meeting/conference things for business majors for Summer Internships where you get to meet and network with people from different firms like Ernst&Young, JPMorgan, etc. I dont have a particularly stellar high school record(it sucks) basically no EC’s and you have to be atleast a sophomore, and I am a freshman. I guess the point is I really want to transfer to a better school but I know any school I transfer to won’t have these same opportunities. What do you think I should do?
Go to those seminars now and next year, and then transfer to a better school.
Great piece. I’ve been trying to break into banking since before I graduated college in 2007. My grades are sub par (2.76 from a big ten), yet, I have had meaningful internships in Fortune 500 companies since my summer before college (5 total). I even worked in the US Senate as an intern for the now President in Summer 2007. I also have a Pilot’s license for shits and giggles. I have tried all types of ways of breaking into banking, obviously non of which have thus far been fruitful. My newest scheme (as I have resorted to calling my methods) echoes the gentleman’s story about providing samples of work to potential employers. I saw that a particular mid market was hiring for an M&A analyst yesterday, so I have been up all night spreading comps and building a DCF model, proformas, etc. for a particular company, that I am going to send to the MD of the group just to get in front of him. That’s how hungry I am. Is this overkill? Have I completely lost my mind at this point?
That could actually work, but it depends greatly on the person you’re contacting.
When you say you’ve tried “all types of ways of breaking into banking” what exactly are you referring to? Have you called 500 alumni and cold-called 100 local banks? That is usually the most direct method, but keep in mind that once you’ve graduated and had 2-3 years of experience it gets very, very, very difficult to start as an Analyst.
I have indeed cold called banks and alum. 2 or 3 landed me an interview where they schmoozed me up, then never called. In one instance, I even wrote letters and mailed them to top execs at BBs and got a response (a “No”, but a response, nonetheless). Awhile back, I actually got an “informational” interview with “human capital” at GS, but it turned out to be a contact’s friend making good on a promise, as the rep made a point to suggest I look elsewhere for employment. These have all just been terrific trips to the tity bar, so to speak, that have resulted in nothing. I will continue my efforts on the cold calling front, but, I feel as if I need to add something a bit more unconventional to my approach to get me in front of more people. Yet, are my efforts becoming exponentially futile at a quicker rate than I think? Has the window shut with my fingers still in it?
It’s really hard to say without knowing your approach and what firms / alum you have contacted in the past. It sounds like you have focused on larger banks, which is almost always a bad idea.
If you’re already several years out of school, you need to focus 100% on non-traditional / smaller banks and anything that caters to your background… I would not give up cold-calling, make sure you read the case studies on this site on how to do it properly.
The most successful readers cold-called dozens of banks repeatedly, every single week, until they got responses.
Thanks so much for your help and I will keep trying that.
I worked at a boutique bank this past summer between my sophomore and junior year. Did some work related to comparable company/precedent transaction analysis, alongside some random industry research stuff. Some of this work was for live deals, but none of the deals I worked on over the summer have closed. How would I approach this on my resume? “Worked on a potential acquisition deal of XYZ company, did tasks A, B, and C?”
Doesn’t matter whether they have closed – just say you worked on “Pending Deals” and that you left before anything happened, so you’re not sure on the status.
Also, I didn’t build any models, and only went as far as updating value in existing models. I’m not planning say anything about “building models” on my resume, but I obviously plan to mention that I did valuation work. I had two questions about this:
1) Will the interviewer still feel inclined to ask modeling-related questions?
2) Will the lack of modeling experience make it seem like I didn’t do much over the summer?
As I mentioned this was a sophomore summer experience, so I think that lowers the chance of being grilled in upcoming junior SA interviews.
You may still get questions on what you did – just say that you helped them update models but didn’t create anything yourself. That sounds a lot better than saying you did no real work. And yes, the interviewer will still ask you technical questions on what you did – there’s no way around that if you had a summer internship.
M&I, can you write more about office politics. I’ve visited many banking related sites, and none seem to speak as authoritatively as you in dealings with human-to-human issues in banking. Would really like to see your take on how to joust well in banking culture, for say, a senior Analyst (3rd year), who is trying to make it to Associate.
Thanks and keep up the great work on this site.
Cheers,
Ok, will see what we can do
A position of “Finance analyst & support”, can I spin that into a “Financial Analyst”?
Yes
Say your completing a summer internship at a boutique investment bank… techically im a ‘summer intern’ but can I type ‘Summer Analyst’? Or is ‘Summer Financial Analyst’ (or something else) better?
Also – I’m not doing ANY Corporate Finance related work. No comps, valuations etc – even though I ask for them daily. I just do ad-hoc printing jobs etc. What do I write on my CV??? :(
Summer Analyst is fine – just frame what you did as research on your CV and don’t go into the details if it doesn’t sound impressive
You mention not showing profit/revenue figures for a company you founded, are you suggesting that you shouldn’t make up fake ones or that in general you should avoid that type of information on a resume. The business I started has been quite successful in terms of revenue and profit.
Should I not include this information on my resume? The only thing impressive about my business is the low initial investment and high returns.
If your company has done well and you list the figures, banks will think “Ok, this guy is making a ton of money and owns his own company, why would he ever want to leave and come do grunt work for us?” If you actually want to get into banking I would downplay it.
At my school a double-concetration in Fin and MIS is called “Info. Mgt for Fin.” which sounds like almost pure Info. Mgt. Can I write “Majors: Finance, Information Management” or “Finance, MIS” or “Finance and MIS” on my resume? (The program involves 4 Fin and 4 MIS classes, while separately it is 5 Fin for Fin concentration and 5 MIS classes for MIS concentration)
Also, if after graduation, I stayed with the company I interned with, but as an intern (full time), can I remove Intern from my title, or is that excessive? (been there full time for 1.5+ yrs now, graduated Dec 09)
Thanks, and great site!
“Majors: Finance, Information Management” is fine. You can remove intern from your title if you’re working full-time.
If I had a pwm summer intership at a BB,
regardless of what I actually did, what would be the “best” (in the eyes of an IB bank) tasks to name there?
See what this reader did:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/non-target-bulge-bracket-investment-banking-offers/
Is it acceptable to spin yourself as a ‘team leader’ in a competition when it wasn’t your designated title?
In hindsight I probably did more ‘leading’ that the other members, but another member had the title (mostly a liaison role).
If another member had the title I would not list it on your resume like that, you can talk about it in interviews though
Sorry, one addition to the above comment;
could you be totally honest about your title, but then say that you ‘Led a team of four…..’ in the description?
Yes.
How do you spin the fact that you spread comps during your internship? Can I say “perform comparable analysis…”? I’m thinking of doing one for myself so I can back it up if they ask, but not so sure since it obviously isn’t what I was assigned to do formally.
Say you did valuation analysis and talk about whether the comps pointed to an overvalued / undervalued company and so on
Thanks for the reply. The thing is I interned in ER, not banking and what I did was simply using the old excel model and collected some data such as P/E, EV/EBITDA of similar companies on the coverage list and played around with it, not getting anywhere. I did this just for myself in my free time. I was thinking of putting something like “performed comparable analysis for companies using EV/EBITDA, P/E ratios etc”, so interviewers don’t think that I build trading comps to value a company and call me out (but still make it look relevant to banking). Do you think I should put it that way? Do comparable analysis for companies and comparable companies analysis (trading comps) sound like two different things to you? :D
I think that’s fine to list, doesn’t make much of a difference
In the background checks, how thoroughly will the company check the details of what I put in my internship? If I “spun” something, will they find out that I didn’t actually do it? Will this cause them to revoke my offer?
Usually they check your title and the dates you worked there… specific details of what you did are hard to verify.
Could they check something that you did overseas?
Generally much harder to check overseas work/experiences.
I have a degree from an Ivy League school and several “brand name” past employers. Two are no longer in business: Bear Stearns and a large (multi BB) fund that went bust after I left. My two issues are:
#1 job-hopping/short tenure at every job. 1.5 years max and I graduated in ’04. This I plan to explain is a result of not having found the right fit + unfortunate circumstances like the Bear case, now I am ready to “find a long term home where I can learn/grow/add value” (which is actually true)
#2 I have two time gaps to fill on my resume between jobs (time spent traveling with my girlfriend, partying etc). On top of the “job-hopping” I am worried it may be tough to explain. Extending the dates at the two aformentioned defunct companies on my resume to make the timeline look tighter: viable or idiotic? There is no HR to call to verify. On the other hand, it’s be easy to get in touch with my former bosses, a google search of their names turns up their new information. Do/would background checkers actually get in touch with senior bankers to verify things like employment dates of an associate at a former employer?
I know I can sell myself once in an interview room, but am concerned about not getting to that point with the hopping and gaps.
Looking at PE and VC, big and small, if that matters at all (I have never worked for a boutique shop before but assume they’d do the same sort of background check as a BB bank?).
Thank you in advance for your feedback.
I would not lie about dates as they could easily find out you’re lying there.
OK,
I received an interview and the recruiter asked me when scheduling the interview what kind of salary I was looking for. I said that was negotiable. Relentless, the recruiter asked again. I don’t remember the exact words the recruiter used but she asked me something like what was the least I would take because I simply gave my current salary figuring if they offer less than that it was a waste of my time.
During the interview, the Director smiled a big smile when I asked about salary and said, “I know what you told the recruiter you were looking for. I want you to tell your wife that I like roses and chocolates (she was female) if we make you an offer. You are underselling yourself.”
Obviously, I took that to mean that they would be offering significantly more than I had said. But later I started to think that maybe she thought I was currently making less than I told the recruiter, and that the number I gave the recruiter was what I was looking for instead of a base.
So, I am now concerned that by giving the recruiter the number that I did, I undercut myself. That is, I am scared that they will low-ball me based on that number rather than what they would normally pay someone for the position.
Now, assuming they make me an offer in January (the director said I was at the top of her list), how do I make sure that I get the maximum without losing the offer?
There is little you can do at this point since you already threw out a number. Maybe just give them a higher number when you get an offer and push until you get it – if they like you they won’t rescind an offer over that.
Hey with regards to that, what’s a god number to say for a middle market IB?
I’m assuming if I say a number that is too high, they’ll look elsewhere and if it’s too low, then they won’t pay me as much as the other people.
(no offers yet, just contemplating)
Research – speak to ppl you know who are already working in the roles you are interviewing for. Mkt research of $ in your location and area is key
Hi Brian,
Just wondering, I’ll be working full time in a graduate program at a reputable finance firm (not IB but I think its reputable) whilst finishing off my degree.
Quick question; Is it wrong of me to use the current employer as leverage into a larger firm say an IB ? that is, when I do officially graduate and I decide to apply to an IB, what problems will I encounter? Will I be grilled?
Thanks and have a safe 2011.
Not sure I understand the question but that’s fine I think?
sorry i should’ve been clearer..
Will they question why I’m leaving the place im at? and will they ask me more indepth questions?
They’ll always ask why you’re leaving your current company, so yes, be prepared for that
I have an internship lined up with a financial planning firm outside DC this summer. My main goal is to get into an investment bank and ofc a buy side job. Is there any way i can spin my internship at a financial planning firm into something that could be attractive to IB’s?
Sure, talk about all the sales skills you learned and how tough it was to pitch people, read the customer, etc… all directly relevant to IB. See: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/non-target-unpaid-wealth-management-bulge-bracket/
Ok great that article is really helpful. I was also wondering, I am mostly done with a marketing degree as well as my finance degree. Would this be at all relevant for breaking into the industry? should I finish the marketing degree?
Marketing is not terribly relevant, finance is, so the marketing degree isn’t necessary
Another great piece; especially liked the ‘Bankifying Your Resume’ article.
If my GPA is like around 3.901, 3.902, 3.902 ish can I round to 3.91, 3.92 or maybe 3.93?
Comments like this make me want to kill myself. Leave it as 3.9.
Can I ask about the CFA?? LOL ;)
Sure, but I’ll jump off a tall building and strangle myself before hitting the ground. Do a search.
Hi, so I will be staying one more year in school. Do I have to tell recruiters or MDs I am a super senior or can I just pretend to be a junior? Afterall, unless they know my birthdate, they do not have any reason to suspect I am a super senior. If I do tell them, will I be at a disadvantage? Thanks!
Just list your graduation date and say when you’re graduating and avoid junior/senior distinction.
Hey, big fan of the site, used it throughout college for recruitment (came out of a non-target).
Quick question about PE recruiting. I graduated undergrad with a 3.3ish GPA but our school has significant grade deflation and that was enough for me to graduate with latin honors (cum laude). Could I just say graduated from x University Cum Laude and omit my GPA altogether? I hear people still care about GPAs after your first job. I currently work at a IB in China and am interested in exit opps in the region.
Cheers,
Jeff
Still list GPA for PE recruiting but note the honors of course.
Hi, I just bought your program recently and it looks awesome! I have a dilemma right now and it is this: I am technically a senior but am really consider studying one more semester and am trying to do an i-banking internship in the meantime. I understand that full-time recruiting occurs in October but summer internship recruiting will go all the way into March. Would it be a bad/good idea to basically do recruiting right now under the “graduating in 2012″ title and try to get a job, and if I dont, change my resume to say “graduating in 2013″? I also have a banking forum at school with a bunch of banks coming. Would there be any foreseeable problems giving a “2013 grad” resume to banks recruiting full-time and “2012″ grad resume to summer internship banks? I am 70% sure I will be taking an extra semester. Thanks and I am sorry for asking more than one question. Since I bought the program can I ask my question somewhere else also(I’m using anonymous name)?
You could do that, but it’s better to focus on one or the other; if you don’t have a solid finance background I would just focus on the internship.
For future reference, if you’re a customer please ask your questions via the BIWS site itself within the members’ area or via the Contact Form on the site:
http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/contact/
Hi! Wow, great site, I will be really considering buying your product soon. Right now I just finished a summer internship at a brokerage firm, Morgan Stanley Smith Barney. I literally didn’t touch anything finance-related and it was all mostly operations work entering in clients numbers to make sure they were in compliance. I was kinda pissed that I didnt get any kind of real work even though they made it sound like I would. When an MD or an investment bank sees my description under the name of mostly ops work, will they immediately discount me? How can I spin this into either a summer internship or full-time offer? I know management consulted exists but is there a resume consulting service for IB? thanks!
I wouldn’t say they would “immediately discount” you though they would prefer people with experience in valuing companies and building models (if you want to get into corp fin).
I suggest you to learn more about valuation on your own and focus on getting the interviews with the IBs. Once you get the interview or have a chance to speak to the MD of the division you want to get into, be sure to impress him w your knowledge of the industry and technical skills. http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/ might help
I don’t know what you have learned from ops so I can’t help you spin your story. However, you can always pitch yourself as an extremely diligent worker who is punctual, willing to go the extra mile, and attentive to details. In your case, I think your attitude, work ethic and “passion” for the work will sell your story better since you don’t have much corp fin experience to spin. And make sure they like you in the interviews.
Hey, following your advice on how to deal with bad grades “That’s ok – it wasn’t your fault. It was because you didn’t fit in with your group’s culture – or because you had some family/personal issues but then learned how to focus and greatly improved your GPA in later years”. I was wondering how do you get a letter of proof of your extenuating circumstances as companies require such a letter in order to process with your application; E.g. nobody is going to believe a claim of illness that affected an academic performance unless a document of proof is provided.
How do you spin your economic interest into a finance spark?
This is a very general question. It depends on what sort of finance role you are interviewing for and what sort of economics skills/knowledge/interest you have.
I am an Econ major, and I read news (FT, Economist) everyday about the state of the economy so I have good understanding of the eurozone crisis. I don’t read marketwatch or WSJ that much and i don’t have a finance background. I did interned at two commercial banks, though even though all I did was editing data. How could I spin this into something legitimate? Also, could I round 3.42 into 3.5? I don’t want banks to throw out my resume just seeing 3.42 up there.
Thanks so much.
You could get away with it but there is some risk, really depends on whether they ask for your transcript or not. You could spin it by saying that you assisted with analyzing data that was used for… [x] and then focus on that [x] and what the purpose was, implying that you work made much more of an impact than what it sounds like.
I thought you said we could round by 0.09 for GPA? this is a 0.08.
What Brian meant was there is some risk because if peeps ask you for your transcript they can see. Its your application so you should make the decision yourself
Hi Nicole,
Do you think it makes a difference whether I would pass through the CV screening at BB for internships if I put 3.5 instead of 3.42?
Could I do Expected GPA: 3.5/4.0?
Thank you so much.
Yes it might make a difference. Not sure if you should put expected GPA unless you’re sure you’ll pull a 3.50. If you are, I think it should be fine though you might risk HR knowing if they check your transcript. However, since you aren’t lying putting your expected GPA, I think you shd be fine unless HR is anal abt it
Question 1. I don’t have any banking related experience. Only founded a business club in my non target school. I’m currently in 3 clubs, officer/leadership role in each one and none of them really have to do with Finance. One involves me being the community service chairman, the other a secretary, and the third is a business club I found but I don’t have touch with it.
What would be the best thing to say in these?
Question 2. Could I say I found my own “consulting business” while in college? I can say that I “consulted peers on various investment opportunities and financial decisions”
Focus on the business club and talk about founding it and what it has accomplished since then. I would not say you founded a consulting business unless it is actually a business, i.e. your friends pay you money to tell them what to do.
They don’t pay me with cash, but rather, a share of the profits I help them make. I basically consult on communication and marketing to friends who work on start-ups. They give me a small share of the initial revenue. Not too impressive but it’s the best I have! If only I was a beast like you, haha.
Do banks conduct thorough checks for Summer Analysts as well or does calling up references is only reserved for Full Time analysts? I was terminated from a previous internship after a month because it was unpaid and I could not arrange a Co-Op validation. For some stupid reason, I just put it on my resume while applying for internships. Now I have multiple BB and MM offers and I am terrified that HR will get me when contacting references. I feel so disgusted with myself for needlessly complicating the situation. would appreciate it if you can let me know whether SA process is less strict or just the same.
I think they do some type of background check but not sure if they call references. As long as you listed the correct dates it should be fine.
This might be an obvious question. Does it hurt me if I didn’t do any modeling during my IB internship? I tried to spin the story where I assisted senior bankers in creating the models and went through each model to understand how they were created and operate. I’m getting constant feedback that I need modeling experience through my internships to standout in the recruiting process. I have modeling experience through classroom work but my internships were mostly doing qualitative work. What’s the best thing I can do for myself in future interviews?
There is some truth to the feedback you receive. With the above being said… Know the basics of modeling. Stress your classroom work modeling experiences. Try to play another card in interviews – your other strengths that make you stand out and how you fit in w the firm’s culture. Spin your story right – Why do you want banking (Have a very good story). These all will balance out your “lack of real work modeling experience”
I notice you often suggest covering a blot on your resume by blaming a culture clash. Is that really convincing? To me it seems to say “I have poor people skills and will screw up much the same wherever I go”. Does each firm really see its own culture as so unique that doesn’t apply?
You shouldn’t say that every single time, no. But it can be an effective way to explain why things didn’t work out sometimes without going into a lot of detail. I don’t think it’s a matter of lacking people skills, because sometimes there are legitimately crazy people and “cultural fit” can be a euphemism for that.
Ok dumb question I know and I should be able to use common sense and it doesn’t even really matter much….but I’m going to ask anyways. Can I round my GPA from a 3.515 to a 3.6? I know you said .09 was ok…
Haha, I’d leave this to you. We’re not responsible for the consequences ;)
Does having GPA around a 3.5 cut me off from Bulge Bracket banks? My school career counselor said that Morgan Stanley probably won’t be knocking at my door, the cut off point for BB is around a 3.8 and I should focus on Boutiques, but I wanted to know from your experience how much of a factor GPA is to get into a BB.
I wanted to start networking with e-mails this summer for my junior year (since I’m going abroad to London for the fall semester and will only be back in December to join in on the spring recruiting) and attach my resume, but I don’t want them to discount me right away because of my lower GPA. My school’s alumni are the ones who come back to interview so I want to make a good impression. I go to a school in the Top 20 US rankings with some decent recruiting.
Thoughts?
It depends on what your other experience looks like. If you have solid internships, then no, a 3.5 is good enough. I would not round it to a 3.6 in that scenario.
If you’re at a Top 20 school a 3.5 is probably good enough… no one is going to look at your resume and say, “His GPA is too low, forget about it!”
If someone else has the same experience but a much higher GPA (3.8 – 4.0) then yes, they may have an advantage. Which you counter by networking more.
I have an internship this summer with an insurance company doing sales and underwritting. How can I spin this, does this even have any value for IB?
Just focus on what you’ve achieved and quantify the results. Not really, but you can still put it on your resume.
What skills do you think are relevant that I could/should really talk about for my junior year interviews from this kind of internship?
Sales & finance skills. If you know the insurance sector well you can try FIG team
hey i know it’s nice to polish your words or re-phrase them in a nicer way in interviews. but let’s say you really claimed on your cv that you “assist senior banker in a $50m IPO deal” when all you are doing at sitting in the office and doing basic works like photocopying. when the interviewer asks you about it, what are you supposed to say?
Have you done anything more quantitative like valuation work and have you been helping out on pitches? Did your work make an impact? Try to focus on those
Hi M&I,
I am a junior in college applying for SA positions in investment banking soon. I did a 3-week overseas (Asia) BB IB internship the summer of my junior year of high school through a family friend and didnt do much except research, etc. It wasn’t very official but it was a good experience nonetheless. Would it be safe to say that I did the internship the summer of my senior year of high school (so essentially pushing it up one year) so that it makes the continuity/story of my resume be more believable? Would they be able to confirm the dates even though it was in Asia and a very informal process? It was a paid internship but I feel like it would be very hard to get any information considering the language barrier/they don’t know my foreign name.
Not sure if it is a good idea to distort the details. Your call.
Hi M&I,
I have a BB SA offer and am about to submit info for background checks. I have two concerns. 1) my freshman experience was a 1 month experience at a large firm but it all happened in July. So I stretched the month out on my resume to include Aug to make it look like its 2 month. Stupid I know… 2) my sophomore internship was an unpaid, unstructured experience with a fund start up. No formal dates of employment.
Question 1) Is it okay to submit the real dates for the background check for my freshman experience? Will they look at my resume and go why are the months listed there different to the dates your submitted for background check?
Question 2) How should I approach the sophomore experience when reporting dates? I only have like a clear ending day. Don’t remember the exact day I started.
While my dates are a little mumbled, I do have positive references at both firms who can vouch for my abilities.
Thanks for your help.
Congratulations!
1. You’ll have to submit the real dates (if they ask for them) for your background check. I am not sure about the reference cross checking but I wouldn’t worry too much about it because there isn’t much you can do at this point. If this comes up, you’ll just have to explain yourself
2. I’d call your previous firm and ask them. Otherwise, I’d probably put the first Monday of that month
Positive references are more important
Hi,
I’m a sophomore, rising junior. This summer I will work at a quite prestigious university as a research assistant in Econs department (the department is top-notch too). Along with that, I’ll be doing analytics for a start-up project with a friend. I understand this is no BB internship, not finance-related, not even standard office work. How do I spin the story to make me look legit in the banks’ eyes?
Thank you.
You may have a better chance at research (i.e. Economic/Credit Research roles) given your experience as a RA. You can spin the story by focusing on your experience in analyzing markets/the economy. This will be useful for research roles – http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/equity-research-on-the-job/
If you want to break into IB, I’d suggest you to gain some sort of deal/valuation experience http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/get-a-banking-job/ Try your best to land a finance internship your junior summer, which is the most important
Thanks for the reply, Nicole.
I do intend to use sophomore summer experience to get the coveted internship. I really want to use the start-up project (tech start-up, mobile app developing, has initially raise $150,000) as a “hook”. Is it worth making a spotlight in my story, provided that a lot of candidates might have similar experience?
I don’t think too many candidates will have similar experience. Your experience in raising money may be worthwhile to highlight because this demonstrates your sales and interpersonal relationship skills. Your tech skills/experience may be more useful for VC funds so I’d explore that too http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/break-into-venture-capital/