How to Break Into Investment Banking as an Engineer
“It’s something very personal, a very important thing. Hell! It’s a family motto. Are you ready Jerry? I wanna make sure you’re ready, brother. Here it is: Show me the money. SHOW! ME! THE! MONEY! Jerry, it is such a pleasure to say that! Say it with me one time, Jerry.”
-Rod Tidwell, Jerry Maguire
If you’re like Rod here, you’ve come to the right place.
You’ve done engineering or you come from a technical background, but now you want to break into finance. Show me the money!
So here’s how you break into the industry:
What You’re Up Against
Every recruiting effort is a battle – sometimes you have advantages over the enemy, and sometimes you’re at a disadvantage.
Here’s what other professions are up against:
- Lawyers: They can work long hours and deal with annoying clients all day, but can they count?
- Accountants: They can do mind-numbingly boring work and they know finance, but can they work long hours?
And here’s your key challenge as an engineer:
“I know you’re good at math and making calculations, but can you talk to people? Do you have any social skills? Are you actually interested in finance? Are you willing to work 100 hours a week rather than the 50-60 you’d get at Google, Facebook, or Twitter?”
You need good answers to those, and your interview performance needs to be polished to a waxy shine – otherwise you’ll come across as the engineer who doesn’t know what he or she is getting into.
In Your Favor
But it’s not all bad news. There are some things working in your favor:
- They won’t doubt your quantitative skills or your attention to detail.
- Depending on your experience, you can prove that you can work long hours relatively easily.
- You have options outside of investment banking that other professionals like lawyers and accountants don’t have access to.
Telling Your Story
Here’s how you apply our story-telling template and tutorial to investment banking interviews if you’re an engineer:
“I started off being interested in [Engineering / Technical Field] back [Before College / In College If You've Graduated], and thought I would do that for a few years.
But after getting exposed to [Your Finance "Spark" - Meeting Someone, An Event, Student Group, Internship], I realized that I was much more interested in pursuing business because I want to make an impact and work in something much faster-paced.
Since then, I’ve done some research on my own and also [Hopefully Done More Finance-Related Work / Activities], and I’ve realized that starting out in investment banking would be the best fit for me. In the long-term I want to be an investor or trusted advisor to companies, and I see banking as the ideal path to getting there.”
You might expand that in interviews or shorten it if you’re networking, but that’s the basic idea.
If you’re an engineer, you’ll have a much easier time telling your story if you’re applying to groups with a technology focus – whether they’re in banking, PE, or anything else.
It makes it much easier to use the Background In One Field + Finance Experience = Long-Term Success formula discussed in Why Investment Banking.
Networking Ninja Tactics
There’s not too much specific to engineers when it comes to networking: if you’re a student, go through alumni, your friends, family, peers, classmates, anyone in your fraternity or sorority, and so on.
Cold-calling also works well with local boutiques, and some regions – like Silicon Valley – have a high concentration of tech-focused boutique investment banks, so you may have more success there.
If you’re already working, you can go to your co-workers, former co-workers, clients, and former clients for networking purposes as well: just be careful to not say too much too early.
Should you go for bulge bracket banks or target middle-market / boutique firms exclusively?
It depends on how old you are and what you’ve done up to this point. Some rough guidelines:
- Already Working Full-Time: Forget about bulge brackets unless you have a killer connection – go for smaller places.
- Graduating Soon, With No Relevant Internships: See above.
- You’re Applying for Internships in Your 2nd or 3rd Year at School: It’s worth spreading your net wide if you’re still at this stage, though you’ll have more luck with large banks if you’re at a well-known school.
Other Options: Hedge Funds, Prop Trading, Sales & Trading, and Middle/Back Office Roles
I mentioned above that engineers have options available to them that others don’t, because of their quantitative background.
There are 2 main categories here:
- Trading: Hedge Funds, Prop Trading Firms, and Sales & Trading at large banks.
- IT / Support Roles: Referred to as the “middle office” or “back office” at banks.
You stand a good shot of getting these jobs because they look for people with quantitative and technical backgrounds.
Even if you’re not doing algorithmic trading or any programming, you still need good math and probability skills to succeed in trading.
And if you’re in an IT or support role, programming is essential and you have a huge leg-up with your background.
But there are a few things to watch out for:
- Even if the work you’re doing is more technical, having a demonstrated interest in finance is still critical. Especially at top schools, engineers are all very, very good at math – but they’re not all genuinely interested in finance.
- You should avoid IT / support roles unless you truly have no other options – transitioning to the front office is quite tough unless you want to get into sales & trading rather than investment banking.
- The main disadvantage of all these options is that your exit opportunities are more limited: you either stick with trading or you move into an entirely different industry if you get tired of it.
So they’re not right for everyone, but you should at least consider them and do some networking in these areas if you’re coming from an engineering background.
Spinning Your Resume
So you have your “story” set and you’ve planned out your recruiting strategy, which firms you’ll contact, and what fields of finance you’re most interested in.
Next, you need to craft a winning resume – because almost everyone will ask for it. Here’s how you do that:
Step 1: Use this investment banking resume template if you’re an undergraduate, or use this more experienced resume template if you’re already out of school.
Step 2: Pick the 3-4 experiences you want to highlight – these should be what you’ve done full-time, your summer or school-year internships, or major activities where you’ve held leadership roles.
Step 3: Remove technical jargon and engineer / programming-lingo from your resume and re-frame everything in terms of business rather than C++.
Here’s a poor way to word an example bullet on your resume:
“Inspected client’s customer support code and assisted with migration from Linux 2.4 to Linux 2.6 by implementing support for 64-bit multi-core processors in assembly code as well as support for threaded processes in operating system kernel.”
No one aside from programming geeks knows what the hell that means – so you need to write about the business results instead:
“Reviewed client’s customer support system and found room to optimize process by 20%; recommended and implemented changes, which saved client $10,000 and 10 hours of labor per week over first year.”
Please don’t write about multi-core processors – write about the time or money you saved people, or the additional revenue you brought in as a result of what you did.
In Interviews
Interviewers will focus on the key questions we referenced above:
- Are you genuinely interested in finance? Do you have a demonstrated track record of interest?
- Have you learned enough about accounting and finance to answer basic technical questions?
- Do you have the stamina to work 100-hour weeks?
- Can you talk to people? Comb your hair? Dress properly?
Here’s how you can answer these “objections”:
- The 100-hour week one is probably easiest: just talk about all the lab work you had to do, all the last-minute projects you worked on, or any time you hit “crunch time” in your internships or full-time jobs.
- To prove your interest in finance, pick a few interesting tech (or other) stocks or companies to discuss. Avoid Google, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, etc. as everyone will talk about those. Also talk about any investing you’ve done or any recent tech market news.
- To answer technical questions, there are interview guides and financial modeling programs that will teach you everything you need to know. You can also go through accounting / finance textbooks or ask your friends for a crash-course.
The last point – proving your social skills – is tough to explain in words, but you need to be polished and you can’t hesitate when you answer questions.
The best way to get good at this one is to practice with any friends who are smooth talkers and imitate them as much as possible.
Also, make brevity a habit – many engineers ramble on endlessly about technical details, but in interviews you want to keep 90% of your answers to 2-3 sentences at the most. If they want more, let them ask.
Technical Questions
Since you don’t have a finance background, bankers will have lower expectations when it comes to technical questions.
But that doesn’t mean you can just ignore them: at the very minimum, you need to know the fundamental accounting and valuation questions – the 3 financial statements, how they link together, how to walk through changes to the statements, and how to value a company.
You could get questions on more advanced topics like merger models and LBO models, but these are more common if you’ve had some type of finance experience: definitely know the basic concepts, but don’t spend time learning every single obscure detail.
If you’re in a time crunch, your best bet here is a comprehensive, concise interview guide that lays out everything in plain and simple terms.
Plan B Options
So you networked your butt off, you spun your resume as best you could, and you nailed your interviews.
But you came out of it with no offers.
What are your options?
1. Consider Finance Roles Outside of Investment Banking
See the section above on hedge funds, trading, and middle / back office roles. While these have some disadvantages compared to investment banking, they’re still much better than sitting around watching TV all day.
You could also think about asset management, private wealth management, consulting, or anything else that takes you closer to business – investment banking is not the be-all end-all that some would have you believe.
2. Business School
It’s never a magic bullet solution, but you can use business school to re-brand yourself… if you do it properly.
Just make sure you get into a top MBA program, that you do some kind of pre-MBA internship, and that you have a few years of full-time work experience first.
3. Keep At It
This one is only applicable if you’re working full-time: if you’re in school, you have deadlines.
But if you’re already out and working, keep in mind that the job search process takes a long even if you’re spending 8 hours a day on it.
Expect to spend 6-9 months looking before you find anything – and it might take a year or longer in a poor economy.
So don’t throw in the towel until you’ve exhausted Plans B, C, and D.
Break Into Investment Banking
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Actually, in my interviews I was often asked “how you would you value a company?” even though I had a technical background, so that is really important, but as you’ve said on this site, there are plenty of other resources that prep you for that question.
Why do IBD sites such as GS and MS have little to no profiles of people from engineering backgrounds? It’s even more rare to see an MD with an engineering degree. Is it simply because they aren’t profiled on the website? Or is it because they are low in number?
Also are engineers in IBD disadvantaged (promotion wise) because of their irrelevant background? My perception is that work in IBD does not require the high level of quantitative skills that are earned through an engineering degree.
JWJ – a couple reasons I can think of. First, most MDs now come from very traditional backgrounds and got their start in the 1980s or early 1990s when banking was much less diverse. I think they’re just low in number. Far more common to see people with engineering backgrounds become partners at VCs, for obvious reasons.
Engineers are not at all disadvantaged in IBD in terms of promotions. Once you’re there, you’re judged on your work, period. Background prior to banking is irrelevant.
I am an electrical engineering graduate working at an engineering consulting firm. I am working in the ‘strategic’ team – our focus is not the technical/design side of engineering but more of a high-level advisory nature. We do alot of financial modelling for various clients and perform technical due diligence on engineering companies that are takeover targets (with the acquirers often being investment banks/financial firms).
Over the past year or so I have developed a burning ambition to get into investment banking, with an aim to leverage my background and knowledge of the engineering sector to add value to an invesment bank; hopefully giving me an edge on someone who has come from a straight commerce background.
Do you think my aims and ideology are reasonable? Or have I missed the mark somewhere? (As you can probably gauge – my experience has not been the typical quantitative based engineering background that you alluded to in your article that would shape someone for a quant/trading/hedge fund type role – a role that I am not so much interested in anyway).
I intend to stick with my current job for a few years to build up my knowledge of the sector whilst I study for a postgrad degree (in finance) part time. I was considering a master of applied finance; however some people have recommended a CFA course or a straight MBA. I am curious to your thoughts on the most appropriate choice for me? And do you think that with my background and an appropriate post grad finance-based degree, I will be marketable to an investment bank?
Cheers, and thanks for your interesting and informative articles!
Hi there,
That seems like a reasonable goal. I think you’re definitely marketable to an investment bank; I would suggest 1 of 2 routes to take if you want to get in:
1) Apply to smaller/middle-market firms that have good tech practices after you’ve finished 1-2 years at your current job.
2) Go back and get an MBA and come in as an Associate. I would recommend at least 3 years work experience before doing this, though, otherwise it looks too thin. Most Associates we get actually have more like 5-10 years work experience.
If you want to get in ASAP I would recommend #1 and if it’s more of a long-term goal I would suggest #2.
Good afternoon and congratulations for the good advice and info one can find on this site.
I am mechanical engineer, 29 years old, with a 4 years experience in (international) sales, working for a mining company (my experience involves budgeting,knowledge of metal products and the metal industry, market analysis, and defining commercial policy as well as assisting development of new products).
I would like to change careers and shift towards finance but I have no experience in the sector. I am in fond of analysing companies and investing.
I am considering applying for an MBA in a top school as a mean to make the transition. I am nevertheless worried about my age together with the “compatibility” of my background and prof. experience in the eyes of potential recruiters.
What advice could you give me ?
Is an MBA a good and practical way to make the transition ?
Thank you very much
Hi there – I wouldn’t be too worried about your age. If you get into a top MBA program (which definitely sounds likely with your experience), it should not be nearly as difficult to get into investment banking.
An MBA is definitely the right way to move in for you. Age will not be a factor unless you were, say, over 40 or so, in which case working long hours may be more difficult.
Hi… I’m a 22 year old Electronics and Telecommunication Engineering fresher and would like to get into Investment Banking. Could you advise me as to how to go about it? Should I get experience my respective field before I make the career change? Should I take up an MBA in Finance first? I am very interested in the stock market and though I don’t trade, I follow it on a daily basis. Please help, I am quite confused.
Thank You and congratulations on doing such a wonderful job.
Fresher,
If you’re already out and working it’s quite difficult to get into banking from your current field unless you do 1 of 2 things:
1) Go for smaller firms that hire more people from varied backgrounds. I’ve had many engineering friends who have gotten in by going to regional boutiques.
2) Go back to business school – probably not a great option if you haven’t been working at least 5+ years.
If you’ve already been out and working for a year or two, I would strongly advise switching over ASAP… if not, you may want to wait for at least a year to pass first.
Can Mr Fresher go to study financial engineering and become a quant, because he has a pretty quantitative background? Can he break into finance then? Actually I am in a similar situation as him…. Please give some information on this. Thank you very much.
He could but its still tough unless he has the relevant work experience. There are millions of IT guys / engineers looking to break into finance so you really need something unique to set yourself apart vs. everything else… and usually the key is an internship at a trading firm / hedge fund etc.
It seems like a Catch22 – you must have experience to gain experience. I am in a similar situation…engineer working as an engineer although very interested in VC and hedge fund work. I plan on going part time into a good quantitative finance program.
The best option is to go after smaller firms in the meantime? Granted, now is a very difficult time for even experienced professionals, but would a smaller/boutique firm be interested in taking on an engineer with strong interest but no directly related experience?
They might be – you never know until you try… don’t overestimate the competition.
Good morning,
1. Does an investment banking firm prefer an MBA grad. or someone with a financial background and work experience in the field ? Being a sales engineer, what should i emphasize to the MBA admission committee for wanting to switch careers towards invsest.banking ?
2. From your experience which personal qualities do you consider most valuable to break in and succeed into investment banking ?
Thank you very much again for your help and valuable advice
1. Depends on what the MBA did before, but usually work experience trumps degree. What you emphasize depends on your own story but I’d talk about client management skills and leadership.
2. See the above – leadership, “hunger” (how much do you want it), attention to detail, work ethic, etc.
Hi there,im really impressed by your responses, ive earned a foreign degree in economics 2yrs back and its being quite difficult breaking into the finance industry especially due to lack of experience. I plan to commence a Pgd degree but do you think a finance proffessional qualification which would be more effective in breaking into the sector. And which ones are most recognised. thank you.
ola: In general those professional qualifications do not help much in terms of breaking into investment banking/private equity/hedge funds… the CFA and such are more helpful for portfolio management and related fields.
Work experience helps the most and really sets you apart – I would advise you to start small and even look at unpaid or part-time opportunities, and then expand from there.
Is “project finance” part of investment banking ? Which banks are the best in the field and how complicate is to target this sector as a future career goal ?
thank you
Not really, it’s more similar to private equity because you’re financing infrastructure projects… I am not too familiar with it but I would assume the banks with strong energy/infrastructure groups (CS, Lehman, UBS) also do the debt financing for Project Finance.
Hard to answer how best to approach it as a future goal without knowing more of your background, but I’d say it’s do-able if you have good, relevant experience in both finance/business and engineering.
I currently work at an investment firm as a Fund Administrator. I have a Bachelors of Science degree in Financial Economics. Currently, I am taking math courses that are prerequisites for financial engineering programs and studying for CFA (taking level 1 in December). Is there anything else I can do to break into the hedge fund world? I can’t even get taken seriously when I interview for portfolio positions at my own mutual fund firm! Can you provide me any insight or advice? Oh and by the way, I am that guy that trades stock(sucessfully)/mutual funds(successfully)/plays poker online at lunch(successfuly). More specifically, when everyone was selling financials the day the bear stearns news came out, I was buying. I still can’t get anyone to take me seriously…
Plz change your attitide first
What kind of engineering would be best to break into IB? Electrical, mechanical? I’ve done a lot of statistical and orgo/phys types of classes – so I am not sure what would be best.
What type of engineering would you recommend?
I would not recommend engineering at all. Maybe CS if you want to trading / hedge funds
Well…I am en route to an engineering degree. It’s a little late to switch that – but I still have moderate control over what type of engineering. So I was wondering what type of engineering would be considered the best…
It seems like engineering is not a very likely way of breaking into finance. Some of your previous statements mentioned that almost always they are placed into the back office (IT, etc.)
What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Yeah it’s not ideal because it’s a ton of work and you don’t gain much of an advantage.
Personally, I’d pick the major that minimizes the work required and go with that – then you can get plenty of time to do other things that do help you.
The information that you have been providing has been really inspritational. Congratulations and thanks!
I am a Bachelor of Computer Science (Honors) undergrad who has worked for 5 yrs now (3 yrs hard core coding and 2 yrs managing) and now I moved to US and I have planning to move to finance/banking/management industry for a long time.
I am willing to start from the scratch but I am very lost as to where to start, where to go and how to learn/advance myself.
I have done PMP (not sure if that would help at all). I am not looking at doing MBA but I have been looking at options like some short term financing courses, if it makes any difference.
I would really like to get some advice as to how to get a break and I am willing to put in long hours and give my best.
Can you help me here?
Thanks!
You need to do a top-tier MBA program if you’ve been out that long, will be very difficult to network your way in.
You can do other courses and such but really MBA will be your best option… with 5 years of experience it’s very difficult to re-brand yourself.
Thanks for the reply.
Since you have mentioned, MBA is the only option for me. I am trying to look at it. Initially I had mentioned I cannot do MBA, is because I am strapped financially and personally to pursue further education. Although I will somehow manage the personal front, financial wise I need some advice from you.
Are there any universities at all in US where I can get some financial aid or something of that sort? Or any University where fees are relatively more affordable?
Not sure if I am asking the right queries here.
Thanks much!
I’m not sure offhand how it works for international students – for a top school you’re easily looking at $100K+, though, and I don’t think they give too much in aid except in special cases.
There might be less expensive schools but banks won’t recruit there as much… so it’s a tradeoff.
Thanks! I shall see what I can do.
Great commentary! I am a 36 yr old civil/environmental engineer with both BS and MS in engineering but have been seriously debating the MBA route. I am interested in IB or other financial analyst positions to gain entry in the field but already make >$100K salary as an operations mgr/eng. Thus I want to switch partly for job satisfaction but also for greater money opp.
If I go MBA it will have to be at local college (which is top 50 accredited) for various reasons (not top 10). Is this a realistic path/pipe dream? Other industry sectors you might recommend?
It’s going to be very, very difficult to get in from a non-top 10 MBA program, especially since you will be older than most post-MBA candidates.
If you are serious about banking you pretty much need to go to a top 10 program – or if you just want to do finance more generically, consider hedge funds and other quantitative roles that care more about your skills vs. your degree/age.
first of all, thanks very much; the advice you’ve been providing have helped me in getting an offer for a six-month off-cycle Internship in an European office of a Bulge Bracket bank.
I tell you my story and I hope it can help the readers.
Last Fall I applied to all the major banks and all the boutiques, giving the priority to those who offered off-cycle Internships (very few!).
My situation was very bad…I had no prior work experience (neither industrial nor financial), I had no student exchange programs (highly rated in Europe), I had no stellar grades…BUT I had a genuine and strong interest for IB.
I wrote a full-of-passion cover letter, and they called me for the 1st round; my motivation impressed the Associates I talked with and after two weeks I was called for the 2nd round (a business case followed by a discussion with a VP, and a traditional interview with a Director).
The day after they offered me the job, although other candidates had better resumes (prior Internships in Bulge Brackets!).
So, I can give some advice for engineers (I’m an engineer too!!):
- if you don’t have a stellar resume, try to write a great cover letter and put attention on the form of your resume (it must look very professional!);
- don’t worry if there are many qualified candidates, when they call you for an interview, resumes don’t matter;
- they don’t care too much of your engineering background, they just focus on your business acumen;
- show them you are faster learner/harder worker/more passionate than any other candidate they interviewed.
Thanks again!
That’s a great story, thanks for sharing.
I’m impressed by your story. I’m in this same position right now. I would like to ask you some more question. Is there a way i could contact you (via email lets say)
Thank You Very Much
Mirela
Im pursuing my masters in Industrial Engineering & Operations Research . Can i get into IB as a fresher with my current degree?
Sure, but you need some relevant work experience/internships first…
Do IBs recruit Industrial Engineers for internship positions and what are the additional skills required to improve my chances of getting the position.
Yes, but you need some relevant business/finance internships… focus on those rather than additional skills.
This may be a late reply, but I just want to assure that they do hire Industrial Engineers, me for example.
Again it’s not where you come from, it’s how you show them you are serious and actively minimizing any disbenefit of not having a finance degree.
I am a BS/MS in Electrical Engineering and working as software engineer since the last 4 years. I am 29 years old. I got interested in stocks about 2 years ago and want to pursue a career similar to Warren Buffet. Currently as a hobby I am following software and technology companies in which I am investing in the stock market, and love doing this as well.
Once I get experience in the investment banking industry I plan to start my own investment fund some day.
In order to achieve the above I am planning to give my CFA and then may be apply for an analyst position where I can get more experience about investment banking.
Please advice and let me know what’s the best way to go about this, and also whether what I am thinking of pursuing is practical.
Thanks for this wonderful blog.
I would suggest business school as your best alternative – 4 years experience makes it too hard to switch into the field directly from where you’re at right now.
I have a top GPA from a top 5 engineering school, and I’m relatively sure I want to break out of engineering. The end game I’m looking for is private equity or possibly VC. But, to reach that end game I would MUCH rather work in consulting than investment banking or hedge funds. I would go for entrepreneurship, but I am a generalist and need constant variety.
Would working in management consulting put me at a disadvantage for PE jobs compared to investment bankers? I’m most interested in strategy and value-creation and not too thrilled by ‘finance’ as most perceive it, but I feel that PE still has a niche for people like me.
Yes. Banking is a far better option for PE than consulting is… if you want to go that route you really need to work at a top 3 firm and/or something like Oliver Wyman that specializes in finance.
Hello,
I graduated with a bachelor honours degree in Computer Science and had work as a software engineer for slightly more than 2 years. My job scope includes software design, coding and demos/presentations.
I’m active with personal trading in US stocks and ETFs(including inverse and leveraged ETFs). I’m also familiar with the interpretation of various technical analysis indicators such as Japanese candle sticks formations, RSI, etc.
I’m turning 32 years old this year and had just passed CFA Level 1 in Dec 2008, its my first attempt.
I wonder what are my chances of getting a position(either analyst or trader) within the financial industry.
What else can I do to increase my chances of successfully switching over to the financial industry?
Any advice will be appreciated. Thank you.
#1 recommendation would be business school – you’ve been working for quite awhile so you would be at a disadvantage next to people right out of college applying to those positions.
If you don’t want to go that route, think about a massive networking effort and aim for smaller prop trading firms that would value your background.
Hello M&I
I would love to go for an MBA but that would not be a realistic choice for me now due to other commitments. I guess a lot of people in my situation feel the same.
I wouldn’t mind aiming for a position in smaller proprietary trading firms since I have zero experience in the finance industry.
I will pay more attention to them in my job search.
Greatly appreciate and thank you so much for your comment/direction.
Sure thing good luck with your search, thats probably the best option for now.
Would this apply to stats too? I graduated from a USNews top 50 school, with a BS Statistics (Honors). I’m at a top med school now, but am considering dropping it. No finance experience really, just working as a quant for various labs (I did their computational work and data analysis). I have some publications…
Could I get a job at a hedge fund? I hear statarb and other stats work is a big deal for them. Or perhaps, some boutiques?
Another thing I was looking at was the MD/MBA. This is a top MBA program as well (as in a top-10, big name). How would that work out, likely?
Thanks!
It would be difficult to get into finance from that background unless you could find a small prop trading firm (for example) that only cared about your analytical abilities.
The MD/MBA program esp. if it’s a top 10 school could be a good option… maybe your best one if you’re already out of undergrad and have been studying/working for awhile.
I never had a job outside of undergrad…and my paid work experience was just a fellowship or two during undergrad. After that, I went straight to an Ivy for med school.
The MD part is really not quantitative at all, and the MBA not so much either. What kind of job in finance could I get? Mutual funds, unlike hedge funds, hire experts in their fund area (i.e. biotech fund for me). How is the pay for mutual funds? I could also see how there may be some opportunities in VC, but as you mentioned in one of your previous articles, that pay pales in comparison to IB. Would an IB treat med school as work experience, and hire me as an associate (like they would for law school JD/MBA)?
Mutual funds might be interesting to write an article on. They’re not as glamorous as hedge funds, but still may be interesting.
Sorry, just realized the “Reply to” and re-posted to avoid confusion. Please delete duplicate…sorry.
I’ve never seen firsthand a bank hiring an MD as an Associate so I’m not 100% certain there… but I actually don’t think that they’d do it, because I’ve seen them hire Ph.D.’s and bring them in as Analysts.
Other possibilities: Biotech VC is the obvious one in finance, you could also go to a mutual fund that invests in the medical area or to a qualitative long-term hedge fund that doesn’t do short-term trading etc.
Bottom-line is that it will be tough no matter what you do, but those 3 are probably your best options.
Would those be PhDs with MBAs, or without? I though MBAs generally came in as associates.
I interviewed at a few prop trading firms, including some really large ones in major cities. I’m a little apprehensive though. What would my exit opportunities look like? If I stick it out in school for another decade (or a little more — working IB like hours in residency) I’ll be making money similar to upper-finance levels , but working 40 or less hours/week. Is it feasible to get into big money quickly? On that note, how big? Oh yeah, I am a badass at online poker.
BB and some really serious hedge funds recruit here on campus. Do you think I have a chance with those? My relevant experience would not really be from the school they are recruiting at. If I did a master in Applied Math here, would that help? That would cost me nothing but time (a year — since MS is paid tuition + stipend).
Without MBAs they would be analysts.
Prop traders generally stay in trading their whole lives, which is why I stayed away from it.
Prop trading is VERY random in terms of money – theoretically, you could make millions each year but with the way the market has been its not happening lately. It’s basically just gambling.
I think you’d have a really tough time with most big firms – Applied Math would also not help at all.
I would look into biotech VC, maybe biotech consulting, and maybe really small trading firms that you can get into via cold-calling.
Would a PhD help? When you say Applied Math would not help at all, do you mean the subject, or the Masters? Apparently DE Shaw and others grab many of our hard science/math PhDs. It’s kind of funny, but they actually skip right over the MBAs.
Is it normal for a prop trading firm to make you put down some of your own money? Some of them ask for this.
How can you find (smaller) hedge funds. It’s fairly easy to find all the prop-trading firms (even small ones) but I have no clue how to find hedge funds. Do you have any advice?
Thank you.
Ask someone with Capital IQ access to find hedge funds for you (go to WallStreetOasis and ask on the regional boutiques thread there).
Ph.D. is only helpful for extremely quantitative positions so really up to you.
Master’s degrees in general do not help though maybe some smaller trading firms/hedge funds will actually care about them.
Some prop trading firms do ask for you to put down money but I would avoid those and go to ones that pay at least some salary (can be hard to find at smaller unknown ones).
Thanks,
Another idea came to me. They offer a PhD in Finance here, and it is pretty hard-core quant. Again, this is a target school — so how would that be as an option?
It’s good if you want to be a quant, but completely useless outside of that… won’t help at all for IB/PE/VC and may actually work against you because you don’t fit their typical profile.
It makes you sharper, but more narrow.
Wow, I find that amazing. IB/VC/PE, particularly IB (and maybe VC) , do not care for the in-depth knowledge of Finance that you would attain from a PhD program? Not only are you like an Finance undergrad on ‘roids, but you also have some whippin’ analytical and computer skills. Do they see it some other way?
For quant roles, would Physics, Math, Finance, or Computer Science be more desirable? Finance would have enough math and cs, and you would have a little edge since you would know quite a lot about “Finance”, but Physics and Math are even more quant, with Physics being more programming/cs oriented and Math having more applicable math. CS is somewhat quant, but you’d probably get stuck as a “High Frequency Trading Algorithm Developer” as I always see advertised on HF websites.
Thanks a lot.
1. The “math” involved in corporate finance is A JOKE. As in, it’s addition / subtraction and maybe multiplication sometimes if things get really fancy.
Finance is 99% about social skills, networking, and making people like you… and 1% about technical skills.
2. Any of those are fine for quant roles, I guess the non-finance ones might give you more of an advantage though.
Again, you need to understand that 99% of finance roles are NOT quantitative in the slightest and mostly involve grunt work.
They don’t care about your technical degrees or what kind of certifications you have, all that matters is how much people like you and how strong your network is…
Hi,
I come from 3 years experience : 2 in R & D & 1 in strategy consulting. After two years of R & D in a national laboratory after an engineering undergrad, I decided to break into consulting and joined a strategy consultancy that focused on the TMT industry. Similar to your advice on entering IB, I leveraged my interest in the TMT industry to get into the consultancy.
One year later and I want to break into finance, but in a role where I can leverage my analytical skills. Consulting did help build by business acumen but I do miss using my tech “brain” as I feel most of the projects don’t really require that much analytical sharpness. I became very interested in finance after working on a few corporate finance projects (and I trade stocks and follow financial news daily).
What are my best options & routes for entering finance? (def not interested in an IB analyst role because I feel it involves a lot of mundane tasks and I don’t want to work more than 80 hours a week)
I feel that quant roles are out of my league because most require a masters or Ph.D and heavy programming experience. VCs tend to hire either bankers or people with heavy operational experience (so I’d have to stay in consulting for several more years). I think my best options are either going for an MBA, a masters of finance, or looking at prop. trading firms.
I did get interviews in the past with prop. trading firms but I always wondered how they were perceived on the resume (seem less “prestigious”). Could you break into a trading role at a hedge fund or bank if you started at a prop. trading firm?
FYI my background : graduated from top 10 engineering school with very strong (top 5%) results in GPA & SAT.
Your best bet is going to a small prop trading firm and then taking it from there… certainly possible to go to a hedge fund afterward, as they are basically the same thing.
Outside that, you have too much experience for IB and not enough for other higher-end roles so I’d say a no-name prop trading firm to elsewhere is a better bet.
MBA / Master’s does nothing for you for that type of role (or for VC, for that matter).
Thanks for the advice. Quick question on the education alternatives?
Why wouldn’t a master of finance (or financial engineering) work for me? …thought those were feeders into hedge funds and banks. More specifically I thought these were a more direct way of getting into a quant role without a Ph.D. in math.
For MBA, I thought it would be a good entry point in VC … i.e., I thought Harvard & some of the top MBA programs have pretty good placement with Private Equity firms (so I assumed VC would be included as well since its a segment of PE)
Well, my friends with Master’s of Finance degrees who had 0 experience have been job-less for over a year now. One of them is now baby-sitting to make money.
Generally firms make almost no distinction between Master’s degrees and normal BS/BA degrees – if a hedge fund wants to hire someone more advanced they will hire a Ph.D.
Generally to do VC you need some kind of operational experience, or perhaps consulting or banking… you actually might have a decent shot now of getting in, but some of the best VCs actually look down on MBA programs because they know they’re useless. For PE, you really need to have done PE or IBD before to have a good shot at getting in post-MBA.
M&I,
It been great reading your advice on this website. Plenty of helpful advice. One thing that keeps popping up is getting an MBA.
I too am an engineer with 3 years of experience and am wanting a change in career direction. I’ve looked at MBAs and Masters of Finance and being from an engineering background, the Masters of Finance look more interesting as they are more quant. Your comment on MBAs being looked down upon as “they’re useless” really made me laugh cause I think exactly the same way. The MBA seems to me as a soft skills course that people should learn by experience (maybe that’s why MBA courses require people with working experience). SO then why are MBAs more valued?
Why are people who have no MBAs but have plenty of work experience at engineering consultancies discriminated against? And with recruitment only carried out once a year, it’ll be difficult not to gain the extra years in the engineering business as we still have to eat until we get that gig at the IB!
MBAs in finance are really more of a “tradition” thing than anything else… it’s kind of like organic chemistry and medicine. How often do doctors actually need to know all those compounds when they’re doing surgery?
It’s sort of just a filter to see who’s serious and who’s not – I really think the skills/material in the program is rather useless, but there is such a strong bias developed over many years that the MBA is great that it’s not going to go away overnight.
Hi M&I,
I have done my engineering in electronics and telecommunication from mumbai university,india and have worked around an year in IT company Tech Mahindra. Now I am pursuing my MBA from IMT Dubai,U.A.E. Could you Please suggest me how feasible it would for me to break in investment banking with an internship in havell india ltd. in their import division.
Secondly, I am also giving my FRM this Nov. and hopefully will clear it then in that case what are the chances for me to get a job in an investment bank.
Rajat
I’m not too familiar with the investment banking industry in India – I would probably ask some other students at IMT Dubai to see what kind of success they’ve had getting in. I don’t know much about Havell but I would think that something in finance or in a finance division would probably be more helpful. The FRM does not help too much because it is more focused on risk management jobs rather than front-office investment banking.
Hi there,
First of all, thank you for all the great advice and information. This is exactly what I wanted to learn about.
I am in the 3rd year Systems Design Engineering – the type of engineering that covers a wide range of engineering disciplines as well as some economic studies and project management, and I would like to break into the equity market, as you mentioned maybe hedge fund or trading. I have done 4 internships so far with some well-known IT companies such as Apple and NVIDIA as software and hardware analyst and I am having difficulties getting any finance related internships with my qualifications. So, here is what I would like to ask for your advice:
1. What are some things that college recruiters look for when hiring students in trading/hedge fund…etc? Please tell me some tangible skills rather than interest in finance or communication skills…etc.
2. Let’s say all my internships are not so related to the finance. Then, what can I do to appeal the recruiters as an engineer? I am graduating in 2011 so I have some time to prepare myself by taking your advice (maybe some extra business courses at school?).
3. I feel kind of akward to ask this but what is the starting salary like if I get a hedge fund/trading related job right out of university?
Thank you so much for your time and I will check back for your response.
Regards, Eric
1) Interest in market and evidence of personal investing and/or being in school clubs/activities that make investments. This is huge.
2) You spin your resume to focus it on business results. More classes are a good idea, consider training programs as well.
3) Varies a lot. Typically base salary is $0 or extremely low and it’s all in your bonus so it’s highly risky. When times are good you could be making $500K and when times are bad you might make $30K. These days it’s closer to the “$0″ level.
So they are going to tell me I am not getting any salary and I might get some bonus if I am lucky. Hm.. it doesn’t sound so worthwhile to transfer into the finance. In engineering firm, I can easily get 50k-60k starting salary with a life balance and job stability. I can still enjoy the trading job but money is also important… Could you share some typical situations these days with college grads getting into trading/hedge fund? A base salary of $0 seems too extreme for me.
Thank you so much for your time.
If that’s the way you think, then trading is not for you – it’s for people who like the thrill of making potentially large gains and those who can manage risk.
Not ALL funds pay $0 base salary, but it is not uncommon. Sometimes you will get a small salary, and sometimes they even pay what a “normal” job would.
This is extremely difficult to answer because different funds pay base salaries ranging from $0 to $100K or possibly even more, so you have to ask them yourself.
Hi,
I graduated as an Electrical Engineer (top of my class) in one of the best universities in South Africa. I’ve been in the working field for two years now, concentrating more on the project management side of the business; but now I am in a more technical area and I am not enjoying it.
I feel like I need to break out of electrical engineering – I’m thinking of the finance arena as I have a flair for mathematics, and am quantative & analytical. I’m considering sitting for CFA Level 1 to improve my chances.
What are your recommendations? How can I go about breaking into the finance field? Should I wait till after CFA Level 1 or try immediately?
The CFA is useless for going into investment banking or private equity and is only helpful for portfolio management and related fields.
At this stage, business school would be your best option – go for a top program and then try to get some kind of informal / unpaid internship just before the MBA program starts.
How about getting the CFA and start as an analyst and slowly venture into private equity or vc?
Wouldn’t it help having both tech background and with a blend of finance?
The CFA does not help you become an “Analyst” – it only helps you in portfolio management, which is very different from IB/PE/VC.
I would strongly urge you to not spend time on the CFA because it’s just not helpful and no one in these finance fields values it very highly…
The banks in South Africa seem to like CFA, sometimes more than an MBA in terms of hiring. However, both the CFA and MBA is a stepping stone to get in and prove you know something about finance. Once you’re in the bank, my MBA seems to provide a broader perspective than a CFA, but there are definitely more CFA charter holders than MBAs at SA banks.
MBAs in South Africa are usually 1 year so there is no internship possible at Banks like in the US/UK. The 1 year versus 2 years is due to financial aid being reserved for disadvantaged individuals, and therefore most people paying their own way cannot afford the opportunity cost of studying for 2 years. The MBAs being 1 year makes interviewing and job-hunting difficult as you’re so busy cramming a 2-year course into 1 year that you have less time for recruitment opportunities, and no time for internships. Even the only holiday (the 2-week break in June) is not enough as you need this time to write your proposal for your thesis. In South Africa, for an MBA to qualify as a Master’s degree you need to write a thesis as well as all the normal MBA case studies & modules.
Hi,
Thank you for keeping the hopes of people alive by providing such necessary information online..
I would like to get an I – banking front office job after searching and reading relevant books, searching online for months. Supposedly negative sides of I-Banking dont matter for me as I already work insane hours and under heavy work conditions… Unfortunately I have no relevant experience. (3 years in electronics manufacturing , worked in 2 different factories, Bachelors in Engineering from top 5 engineering school in US, honors gpa). Now I m going to have a 1 year MBA in UK, (top 5 there but not sure internationally) .
do you think that 1 year MBA is ok to brake into Ibanking? What should be my first steps,priorities to get such a job , during mba?
thanks in advance for your comments!
I would strongly suggest a 2-year program and try to do it in the US if at all possible as it will carry more weight worldwide (with a few exceptions, like INSEAD, international business schools generally don’t carry the weight of top ones in the US).
Coming from that background, you need to get some kind of pre-MBA finance experience and also do a ton of networking.
What’s your opinion on UK business schools? Checking FT, London Business School is top with Wharton. And there’s Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick and Imperial. Would a MBA from these schools be recognised outside the UK?
Any chance you know how the IB sector recruitment works or is it the same as in the US?
I am not that familiar with UK business schools, but I think LSE and the rest you mention are tops though I don’t know that the rest have the same recognition as Harvard/Wharton do worldwide. It would definitely be recognized outside the UK though. Recruiting is similar, but there are some differences such as competency questions and assessment centers that don’t exist elsewhere – for the assessment centers, you can apply a lot of the strategies on case studies that I’ve written about here before.
Hi,
Great job on the insightful feedback here. I have 4 years of technology project management experience, and want to work for a bulge-bracket Investment bank. In about a month and a half, I start my full-time MBA at a top 5 program (read not Harvard, Wharton, Stanford). Had 2 questions…
1. In the time I have before, how can I get some modeling / finance / deal experience? What’s a good way to find an unpaid or volunteer position for the summer? So far, I’ve tried VC firms (trying to sell them on my tech background) with little success and haven’t been able to find formal internships for someone with my background.
2. If I can’t do anything this summer, what can I do in the fall to increase my chances at an I-Banking internship? CFA level-I? Aggressive networking? Intern during the semester?
Thanks in advance
1. Get on the phone and start cold-calling people and doing some alumni networking (from your undergrad). See all the networking material for more on this. Focus on boutique banks.
2. Aggressive networking or interning will help the most, CFA is useless.
Hi,
I have just graduated from King’s College London with a Distinction for my Masters in Mechatronics and I also have a BEng Honours in Electronic and Computer Engineering. In the past I have only been working as a consultant on a project in a R&D engineering capacity and currently I am doing freelance research for a UK firm.
Reading through the past comments, it seems like the MBA route seems the ‘fast tracking’ means for getting into finance. However, couldn’t I attempt to approach some of the smaller firms with my current skill set? I am no stranger to Advanced Calculus and am a keen programmer as well (MATLAB/C++).
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Kind regards
Michael.
You could attempt to cold-call smaller firms and do some networking, but it’s difficult if you have a lot of full-time work experience. Maybe test the waters a bit, but don’t spend hundreds of hours on it unless you get a few good responses first.
Hello,
Just wanted to say that your site has given me much insight on breaking into ibanking. I bought your Q&A book and it has been a great help to me as well!
I’m currently in my final year of my Software Engineering degree and got a 12-month Business Systems Analyst internship in the Capital Markets division at one of the bulges in Canada. It’s a middle office role, so its mostly IT-type work, but my real interest is in ibanking and front office positions. I’m in the 1st month of working right now.
What would you suggest I do to best take advantage of this position? I should network as much as I possibly can but is there anything specific I should be doing to take advantage of my circumstances? I’ve spoken to a few recruiters, haven’t done much beyond that. Should I start scanning the employee directory and begin cold calling? Any input you have would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.
Michael K
Rather than cold-calling, I would try to get referrals from friends there and see if they know anyone in different divisions. There’s not much you can do aside from networking and continued persistence – recruiters probably won’t be too helpful unless a friend gives you the referral.
Thanks for replying. I’ll keep on plugging away and continue to expand my network. I must say that I truly am grateful for the wonderful resource you have here. I’m always looking forward to new content!
Cheers.
Very well document !!
I am very interested in Finance but had an Engineering in manufacturing processes and Automation,making a change was never simple,
But then a company called “Futures First” visited our campus for placements and as you said….”emphasize your interest in finance” that truly holds the key.
Its hedge fund job,and rather than “video poker/online poker” i mentioned my passion for gaming and strategy making.
I must would have given u all the credit if i had read it b4 !
Anyhow,it truly seems…The (2) option of getting into Hedge funds is easier than getting into the option (1).
Congrats!
Hi,
Very insightful article, and I enjoyed reading it. However, one sad thing is some of the aspects mentioned here are not applicable to me. I’m sort of an engineering major(mathematics to be exact), but my true background is finance. So I would like to seek some further advice, and my big question would be: “Do firms only look for the next Eistein, truly genius types of people among engineering majors? Or is it ok to be “less than brilliant, but smart enough to handle the things?”
I’m originally coming from a business background and prospective employers will see in my transcript that I attended one of the top undergraduate business schools before moving to another university, where I’m currently studying math. And of course I want to work in hedge funds/S&T/other related fields, and Citadel sounds more familiar to me than Google or Facebook ever does. So the fit isn’t an issue for me.
The issue is, so far I don’t have enough proof to show that “I’m very good at my current major,” or at least as good as those who are applying for grad school. Not that I struggled(my GPA looks good, if not great) but I did’t have very impressive quantitative and technical backgrounds from the beginning. I kind of feel that I’m in the middle ground, a person who knows much better about probability and physics than average business students, and who is more sociable than tech people, but is not truly accomplished in both fields.
So again, I want to know if my lack of talent hurts my chance as a trader, and what I should to in order to make up for it. Thanks.
You don’t need to be brilliant, you just need to seem capable. As long as you have a decent GPA and can handle basic math questions it’s fine
I am an engineer with over 7years of experience (with patent), an MS in engineering and in 2007 I completed my MBA (Finance). Over the last couple of years, I have developed a strong interest in finance and now I made up my mind to transition into finance. What advice do you have for me to get a job in Investment banking or Private Equity?
At this point you’re going to need to do a ton of networking and cold-calling to have any chance of getting in – very difficult if you’ve already done an MBA 2 years ago. Focus on tiny firms and go for Associate positions there, then move up – large banks will not be receptive unless you have a killer connection.
Hi
I have read all your comments in this section.I am an IT engineer with 3 years of exp.I am in the process of applying to bschools (read not top 10).My doubts are I am applying to top 40 schools such as SMU Cox ,TAMU etc….
1)Can i be able to make it to a smaller or mid size boutique using the above ?
2)After gaining experience say about a year or 2 from boutique can i get a job in a BB(read using head hunters)?
what do you think about the above.How do you compare the difficulty of this approach to getting directly from top 10 bschools.
I am sure your reply would help many readers.
Thanks
K
1) Maybe but you’d stand a much higher chance at top 10 schools.
2) Yes.
You could do this, but honestly it is 10x easier to get to a large bank coming from a top 10 school.
Hello M&I,
I am starting my 3rd year in Computer Engineering and would like to try I-Banking. I know the sacrifices I need to make.
I’ve read the comments and came to the following conclusion, in order to become an I-Banker:
1. I need a CFA designation.
2. I need an intership at boutique bank (prefreably) as an Investment Analyst.
I that right? Could anything else be added?
Thank you for your help.
The CFA is useless. Internship at boutique is a good idea.
Will getting an IT Business Analyst Job help in breaking into IB? And how about breaking into VC and PE firms? It’s easier leveraging on my engineering degree to get a IT Business Analyst job, at the moment
It’s more helpful than a pure engineering role, but not as good as something actually in finance (even a quant hedge fund or private wealth management for example). For VC/PE usually you need banking experience first.
M&I,
I have an BS in electrical engineering degree from a TOP 50 engineering and a career in Power & Power Systems working for 3 years in the largest EAC firm in the country. I have been accepted to a top 20 MBA school concentrating on Finance. What are my chances to get into a specialized field of Energy, Energy trading and hedging power markets? I have relevant background (internship) in trading with Power at a local RTO, and the last 3 years been in the planning/construction of transmission lines across the country.
That sounds solid, it will come down to networking at this point.
Summer Internships applications are underway, is it wise to try to find a way to get into a program prior to my MBA admission next fall, 2010? Or just wait until after the programs starts?
Yes, but go for pre-MBA programs instead
This is excellent! I have been looking for similar advice for a while, but never find a right resource to do so.
I must have highest seniority among all the folks here getting your advices. I am a chemical engineer in training with a MS degree. Most of my experiences are with big engineering companies – 14 years in Biopharm industry and a few years in petrochemical, environmental industries, for process, facility engineering design. In recently years, I started to feel that I will head to a dead end soon if I don’t switch away from this purely technical route. Lately, where I should turn next in my career has become big focus of my thinking and investigation. There are a few options I already had in my mind. Moving to a Financial institute is one of them.
I feel that my experience and expertise can be very valuable in the area of load/investment evaluation/approval, business merger/acquisition for the sectors like BioPharm, Emerging technology (biofuels) etc.
Please let me know your opinoin on whether this option is feasible or not. If yes, please advise on where and how to seek these opportinuties.
Thank you in advance for your help
It’s very tough with 14 years of experience. Maybe look at smaller places that focus on your industry and see what the response is first – normally banks want people who have just graduated.
M&A,
I’m a recent grad who is about to complete a M.S in Engineering from a top-rank university however for the last 2-3 years I have been much more passionate about the financial news, markets and learning how to trade.
Since I’m a newly minted grad, I don’t think an MBA would be a worthwhile option right now–I have no work experience and already hold a Masters degree.
Any suggestions on how to attack Wall Street, considering the current economic turn-down? Would a CFA help?
A CFA is useless. See the FAQ.
Basically you need to network your ass off if you can do neither a Master’s program or MBA… start cold-calling, using alumni networking, etc. and read all the related articles on the site.
M&I,
Thanks for the input–I have been networking, cold calling and contacting select head hunters. One problem that I’m running into is that many of the positions I’m looking for require *some* sort of financial experience. I have taken a few choice financial classes and begun reading up on elementary concepts but what is the best way to reconcile my lack of a financial degree with my heavy quantitative ability?
Would breaking into equity research and then making a lateral be a viable option?
You should look at smaller places without formal training programs or recruiting processes if that’s the case – get something informal for a few months and then leverage that. ER is also hard without any finance experience, and I think you’d actually have better luck with banking first.
Hey, I have a first class honours degree (Ireland) in civil engineering and I am considering doing an MSC in quant finance. Not being cocky but would this almost guarantee me eventually acquiring a quant position.
Um, no. The market has changed a lot and it’s not 2005-2006 anymore. No matter what your credentials, you need a ton of work experience and networking.
Hi,
I’m a mechanical engineer graduate. I’ve been working for about a year and want to move into the IBD in the future. I’m being trained on six sigma to become a belt. Do you think that would be helpful in term of finding ways into top MBA programs? My college GPA wasn’t good, only 3.45 but I will be working on many projects. I spend a lot of time with excel and minitab, etc. What is better? IBD or VC? Thanks for your help!
Not really. I would focus on networking and doing something more impressive than engineering (e.g. more management / bus dev-oriented role). Which one is “better” is hard to answer because it depends 100% on your goals, VC is more focused but fewer options after, IBD is broader but longer hours / worse lifestyle etc
Thanks for the reply! Can you give me some advises on what should I focus on to get into a top mba school? I guess project managing experience won’t be enough then? What do schools like HBS and Stanford are really looking for? I really want to go to one of those school. I think I should start planning from now If I want to make it there in 3-4 years. (Sorry, I’m a little off track here)
You need to do something really impressive outside work – start a non-profit, become a best-selling author, start an influential organization… they’re looking for people who can change the world.
Hello,
I have a Bachelor degree in Math & Computer Science from Russia. After graduation I worked for a year as a programmer of accounting software, then I spent one year in a bank as a credit analyst. In 2007 I moved in the US, recently finished an MBA program (not top school) with Finance concentration. Now I work for a large bank as an analyst in credit risk department – as you mentioned in one article “pool girl from back office”. I’m eager to move into investment banking – long hours, stress, challenges and possible results are attractive for me. With my education/experiences is it possible? I live in middle-size city and plan to move in NYC soon.
I would appreciate any advice. Thank you!
You could move into banking, but if I were you I would try for sales & trading instead – getting in from not a top MBA program and from the middle office is tough but it’s easier if you go for sales and trading instead.
Hello M&I…
I asked a similar question in your other blog but I have a few more follow-up ones…
1. If I have no finance background or experience. I am an Engineer, been working in the Public Sector (Toronto, Canada) for 5 years. If I want to switch to finance, and my major interests are: M&A, IPOs, Private Equity, Venture Capitalist, Trading, Capital Raise, and etc….. The best way is to start…
i. Small firms
ii. Go to B-School, but should I pursue an MBA? or a Master in Finance?
Also, does it have to be Top-tier…Canada is somewhat different in the US, only 3 to 4 Universities made the Top 100 Schools on the Global scale…
Is this a possible or achievable goal if I really want to make the swtich. To be honest, it’s about money+interest and ultimately, I think if I save up enough in my 30s & 40s, I can open up a Tim Hortons or Starbucks and cruise into retirement…
2. You mentioned that MBAs are useless to Prop Trading… what do Prop Traders do exactly? Why are MBAs useless? I don’t want to waste time+money and end up choosing the wrong career path + education package, is MS in Finance better than MBA for someone in my situation?
3. What kind of books would you recommend for someone like me? What magazines should I subscribe? Any clubs I can join to open up some network channels in Toronto?
4. You mentioned that I should start some Pre-MBA internships, but I tried and found almost nothing available in the Toronto Area, what about Co-op options in the MBA program, will that be a better choice? Or you think if I try making the switch during my pursuance of the MBA as I am aiming to do it Part-time is better?… Do you think my chances of landing a job in an I-bank will be greater that way? Or wait until I graduate?
Thanks a million…
btw, I have interest in stocks, studying companies, I invested in stocks, trying to learn more about options, market is so unpredictable right now, so I can’t say I win a lot, but I certainly hope getting my feet into the door of M&A, Corporate Loans, IPOs, PEs, VCs, or general i-banking or Corporate banking will be my dream….
Please help.
THANKS again..
I would definitely do an MBA program. And yes, it has to be a top program even in Canada. Prop traders make tons of money any way they can – that could be an option for you but you need to find a small place open to your background.
I would think about Society of Securities Analysts, anything CFA-related, etc. for clubs; magazines and books won’t help much.
Just go for co-op options in your program if pre-MBA opportunities are not there.
M&I:
Thanks for the advice. What about a Master of Finance? If I want to do M&A, Corporate Loans, IPOs, PEs, VCs, or general i-banking or Corporate banking, is a Master in Finance better than an MBA with Finance Concentration? The only disadvantage is and assume they accept me is I don’t have any Finance background or related work experience, so is a Top-tier MBA with Finance Concentration my best bet? What about pursue a Master in Finance after I have the MBA? Is that even better? Please advise.
Also, you mentioned small firms/boutiques, can you name a few that in based in Toronto, Canada? Thanks a lot.
Regards,
You can review this article for the trade-offs on Master’s programs:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
There is no point to doing a Master’s AFTER an MBA.
For small boutiques in Toronto I don’t have a list but you can ask online on WSO or look at Networking Ninja program offered through this site.
Thanks M&I, you are the greatest….
One more question, What exactly is WSO? I googled it and it’s a name of a stock or something related….
Also, do you think the chances to succeed in attempting to MAKE the switch from Engineering to Finance during my pursuance of the MBA & CFA III will be >50%? Or in general, these small Boutiques won’t even look at my resume until I graduate? (There isn’t a lot of MBA Co-op programs here in the Toronto Area).
Thanks again and again….
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/
Hard to say what your chances are, you could try asking now but they will definitely improve once you have the degree.
Thanks for this resourceful and insightful website! This is the most useful website of I’ve ever met for landing a job in IB.
I want to discuss with you about positions that PhDs could get in IB/Hedge fund. I am from a theoretical physics background, with solid skills set such as financial modeling, math and programing. I am planning to graduate in summer 2011, so I am trying to find an internship this summer as you suggested always. My problem is that although I have nearly perfect GPA, I am from a semi-target state school which means I can hardly find alumni in IB/Hedge Fund.
So my question:
1. What kind of internship should I do to help me to find a S&T quant or Hedge Fund Arb Strategy Quant ?
2. What if I want to go to banking, what should I do now?
3. Where can I find the internship opportunity of small Prop Trading Firm or Hedge Fund?
I would look at small prop trading firms if you want to do one of those, start small and move up. If you want to do banking, on the other hand, you need to do something more closely related, like working at a local boutique bank. For finding opportunities, there are lists of hedge funds and prop trading firms online that you can look through and then cold-call places.
Hi,
Thank you for such a great article and for the whole website. Really, this is a gold mine.
I am currently a software engineer (4 yrs out of school) trying to get in to IB, and I am hopeful I can be accepted at one of Wharton/Harvard/Columbia this coming month.
Assuming that I get into one of these, what steps would you take if you were in my shoes to have the best possible job in IB coming out of business school?
I have no formal background in finance except my own stock portfolio (not a fancy one) and my real estate investments. I am considering either
1. trying to find a finance-related pre-MBA internship (hedge fund, IB…) for 2 months and work for free hoping it will help in the long run
2. taking your BIWS Financial Modeling course and listing it on my resume.
#1 looks tough to do even pro bono, and there is still the 2 months of salary I’d forfeit (and I’ll be paying for 50% of my MBA).
As for #2, how much would it differentiate me in school when it is time to look for internships?
Thank you for your time.
#1 is your best bet. For #2, it’s more about the knowledge you would gain / preparing for interviews or for when you actually start working… listing training courses on your resume won’t put you ahead of someone who worked at Goldman Sachs.
Thank you very much for your answer.
I only have one follow up question: How much impact has a top MBA program when it is time for getting a summer internship in a bulge bracket bank after your 1st year? I looked around on the articles you wrote about an MBA but couldnt get an answer.
Where I work, many alumni (especially from Wharton) are telling me it was definitely not uncommon to have students come in with not finance background but get a summer position at Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan and the likes.
What is your take on that?
Still difficult to move in with no experience, but a lot easier if you’re in a top MBA program. If you’re trying to use the MBA to move into finance, it’s not really worth it unless you’re a top school.
Hello M&I:
It’s Kenneth again. There are so many listings, surveys and reports on which B-schools are the top, but do you know which MBA Schools are the Top tier ones in the Toronto Area of Canada?
Also, is Part time not as good as Full time? Thanks.
Regards,
Part-time vs. full-time opinions vary, but most people would say it’s easier to get in from a full-time program. I honestly know almost nothing about business schools in Canada but I believe the usual suspects, e.g. McGill, Ivey, etc. are all good.
Thank you very much for your advice.
Hi,
I have just finished up my Bachelor’s degree in Electronics Engineering and have gotten a minor in Business Administration. I have about 7 more classes before I receive my Bachelor of Business Administration in Finance. My question is should I finish the remaining courses and get my BBA degree or is it better for me to go work 3-5 years and then try to get into a top tier MBA school. I have about a year experience working in the technical field but mostly as technical support.
Depends on whether you’ve done any networking / what your access to recruiters is like… if it’s not good I would go for the MBA, otherwise you can finish the BBA degree and try for it now.
Hi, and many thanks on this article! since I cant see any dates on these comments, am not sure if this is a dead thread or a live one…. anyway, great website, again…. Now, how about the following?
-I’ll leave my engineering life behind and start a new life…
-I’ll go for Bachelors in Finance/Accounting/you name it/(you suggest it please)…and within 3 years max I’ll have finished undergrad school (again) along with some minors and will have probably had some internships at some interesting places…
-I guess this is quite a viable option for me as I come from far far away (middle east), can’t afford a top school MBA (and won’t probably qualify for) and need to reach the states as a start…
What are your thoughts???
Have you already graduated from university at the undergraduate level? If so, that plan may be problematic because banks only expect you to graduate once. The better option is to do a Master’s program in finance in Europe or anywhere else close to you.
Thanks for the reply! Yea I believe you’re right. I guess I just need to look for more sources to finance my Ms degree…. Cheers!
seems that it very hard to break into Investment Banking for an engineer. But is that hard for one with engineering background to work as a quant, if he/she takes several graduate courses in Finance/economics at a top 30 University? Thank you!
Usually they want Ph.D-level people for those positions. You can do similr but lower-level roles at hedge funds and other trading firms though.
Thanks a lot!
Do you mean a PhD in Finance or it can be Engineering? And what are lower-level roles?
It could be anything math-related. I just meant non-quant roles, so instead of coming up with the models yourself maybe you just do the programming / implementation.