How to Break Into Finance with a Low GPA, No Finance Experience, and Without Going to a Top School: 4 Mistakes to Avoid and 3 Strategies to Embrace
It’s one of the most common questions/complaints I get…
“All your advice is focused on people at top schools! What about the rest of us!”
“You assume that we have 4.0 GPAs in finance programs!”
“What do I do if I’ve been a door-to-door insurance salesman for the past 10 years?”
Never mind that advice on topics like networking applies to everyone – and that we’ve addressed how to get in from different backgrounds several times before, with more coming up in the near future.
Today I’ll share a few stories from readers who work at banks and are responsible for interviewing potential new hires – and a story from one reader who recently did exactly what the title suggests:
He got into finance with poor grades, no finance experience, and did it coming from an unknown school.
Here’s how he did it…
What NOT to Do
Let’s start with a few stories from readers who are working in investment banking right now and interviewing potential intern and full-time hires.
Read each of these, and then do the exact opposite of what the person in the story did.
1. Potential New Hires at a Boutique: Back to the Basics
Here’s a portion of an email I received from an Associate at a boutique investment bank who has been interviewing potential interns recently:
“It seems unbelievable, but most of the resumes we got were poorly formatted and had typos. What are they thinking? Also, it was shocking to me how many people had no idea about basic business and accounting concepts like enterprise value and working capital. Even more shocking was how many students claimed their ignorance was understandable because their university did not have a business program.”
Lessons Learned: Go back to the basics. If your resume has typos and you can’t explain enterprise value, your chances are pretty low these days – we’re not in 2006 anymore.
Despite how competitive it is at bulge brackets and how few places are hiring, it’s still worth remembering that the majority of applicants don’t even get the basics right… and at true regional boutiques, you run into even fewer interviewees who know their stuff 100%.
It goes back to a point we made months ago: don’t overestimate the competition.
2. The Guy Who Couldn’t Take No for an Answer: Avoid “Jack Bauer”-Style Networking
This story comes from a friend who works at a boutique outside the US. This was an in-person story, so I’ll quote my friend as accurately as possible:
“I had one guy who requested an informational meeting with me… so we met for coffee once. I could tell that he didn’t know that much, and during the meeting he was trying way too hard to impress me rather than just being himself. I told him we weren’t hiring anyone at the moment, but he kept pressing me for more meetings.
Within 2 weeks, he had emailed me about 5 times asking if I was free for more informational interviews. By the 5th email I basically stopped responding to him.”
Lessons Learned: Persistence is good… to a certain degree. You have to read your contacts and decide who likes you, who is open to further discussions, and who doesn’t want to have anything to do with you.
Remember, a networking ninja is stealthy – but emailing someone 5 times in 2 weeks is the complete opposite. Rather than subtly extracting information from your target, you’re more like Jack Bauer torturing a suspected terrorist to get information on the next attack.
Subtlety comes with practice and there’s no quick-fix solution: the best advice is to get out there and start talking to people. If no one responds favorably, re-think your approach and ask your friends and anyone you’ve spoken with for honest feedback.
It’s probably too aggressive to contact someone more than once every few weeks unless you know him/her very well and have extremely specific questions.
Even in a recession, a BIG part of going from networking newbie to networking ninja is determining your “most valuable” contacts and acting accordingly.
3. The “Finance Expert”: Tell the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth
In these times it’s tempting to claim that you have a ton of finance experience to stand out – and that temptation is especially strong if you don’t have top grades, a banking internship, or an Ivy League name on your resume.
But bankers can detect that type of deception instantly, and will always call you out on it – as in this story from a friend who just interviewed one candidate:
“Had a guy who told me he has ‘built financial models and performed relative valuation such as trading comps and transaction comps.’
I asked him to walk me through how he spread those comps… and then he just stumbled and started going off on a tangent for 5 minutes without actually answering the question. Not knowing is one thing, but his biggest mistake was lying about it.”
Lessons Learned: Don’t lie, especially about something that the interviewer can easily determine is a lie – whether it’s “fluent in Mandarin” or “knowing how to spread trading comps.”
It’s one thing if you’re exaggerating your role in a “company you founded” (with your friends in a backyard in high school) and the facts are harder to check, but when it’s something concrete you can’t afford fabrication.
Only bend the truth when you won’t get called on it and when it benefits you in some way.
4. The “Steep Learning Curve”: Wait, Why Did You Want to Do Investment Banking Again?
It’s amazing, but some interviewees have no idea why they’re actually applying to investment banking jobs. I get at least 1 email per month asking what the “best reason to say you want to do i-banking” is… and here’s the truth:
Think for yourself about why you actually want to do it and use that as your reason.
And make sure you have a good reason – unlike the guy below (another story from a friend at a boutique)
“Another guy told me he wanted to get into i-banking ‘because nowhere else would provide a steeper learning curve where he could learn the most in two years.’ He kept rambling on about learning… but I had no clue WHAT he wanted to learn – so I asked him if he wanted to learn i-banking, or learn how to learn… he was TONGUE TIED.”
Lessons Learned: Your “story” and answer to “why i-banking” (or “why PE,” “why consulting,” “why anything”) are the most important parts of any interview – and if you have bad answers, you’ll never make it past the first round.
Saying something generic like “I want to learn” CAN work but you need to elaborate and say what it is you want to learn specifically – and then tie it into your background and what you’ve done before.
A tech consultant saying he wants to understand the big picture of the industry when applying for tech banking makes sense… but saying that you just have a lifelong passion for learning as your only reason doesn’t.
From Failure to Success: Getting in With a Low GPA, No Background, and No Top School
No matter what your grades and education are like, you absolutely need to have your “story” together and have good answers to the basic questions.
But if you’re not coming from a “4.0 at Harvard” background, you may be tempted to exaggerate and be overly aggressive when networking, both of which can hurt you.
Here’s how one reader avoided all that and got into finance despite having a low GPA, no prior experience, AND after he had already been working full-time in another industry:
“I know that in one of your recent posts a reader had mentioned that they wanted to hear a story about someone who came from a non-target school, with a lower-than-average GPA, and no finance experience, who made their way into the industry.
Well, I am that person! I went to a small non-target college that no one has heard of, and got under a 3.0 there (though I got a 4.0 on the social scale!).
I’ve been working for the past few years as a tech consultant, though I also did some management consulting-type work.
I recently got an offer from a hybrid banking/consulting boutique, and did it by networking with an alum from my school who I cold-called. He was fairly high-up so it was a good decision to go to him directly.
During my interview process, rather than getting technical questions on accounting and finance, I was asked to provide sample work product showing my writing, presentation, and basic modeling abilities.
I know that’s not the norm at bulge brackets, but I think anyone applying to boutiques and hybrid firms should know that – especially if you have some full-time work experience, showing them what you can do (literally) plays a big role in getting offers.”
Lessons Learned:
1. Although he didn’t go to a target school with a strong network in finance, he used that to his advantage by cold-calling someone high-up and using the rare alumni card to get an “in.”
How many calls do you think someone like that gets?
Not many if he’s from a non-target school.
2. He leveraged his background by applying to a hybrid firm rather than a pure bank. By appropriately spinning his consulting experience, he made it sound like he was well-suited for the position.
And since it was a boutique, his chances were higher to begin with. Any type of hybrid consulting firm focused on restructuring and turnarounds is a good bet these days, because they’re one of the few types of firms still actively hiring.
3. There’s more than one way to impress. Especially for anyone working full-time and applying to small firms, bringing in examples of your previous work is an effective and often-overlooked strategy.
You have a big advantage over anyone still in school, because you’ve already proven yourself in another field – and you need to use that to your advantage.
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Thanks for this post.
I am a fresh graduate from a top university in Turkey. I joined a newly founded investment advisory&engineering firm which will focuse on niche markets in emerging countries.
In these weeks, we are accepting our first interns. But when we see the CVs, we got shocked.
Applications via email were disastrous.
-Most of CVs were mistyped.
-Most of CV were full of relatively unimportant things, unnecessary certificates which silly people even may get.
-No attention to detail about the job application.
- AND most of the them only attach CV, no further explanation.
I believe most of the applicants are more worthy than their attached CVs. However, they do not allow us to know them truly.
Yup that sounds in line with what I’ve seen elsewhere… for all the talk about how bad the market is and how no one is hiring, most people are still not approaching the recruiting process in the right way.
I am a Junior at a non-target school with a GPA in the low 3′s. I have a front office SA position in IBD at an MM. I got the position mainly through networking, but also because I had my resume and CV extensively reviewed and edited by anyone I knew in finance who would look at it. I also knew basic accounting and finance concepts (despite no accounting or finance coursework) and was prepared for those questions when asked during the interview.
How did you learn the accounting and finance concepts?
Great advice.
How important is it that a resume be one page? I am 5 years in tech consulting and have much experience (mostly non-finance), so my resume is 2 pages long. Despite this, do you think it wise to still add CV?
It should always be 1 page unless you are an MD-level hire or are in a region like Australia where 2+ pages is common and acceptable.
I would strongly recommend cutting it down to 1.
I have over 10 years’ worth of experience and 2 masters degrees, so 1 page is difficult for me too. I understand the imperative — I just don’t know how to do it.
On one hand, I’m a total Boy Scout (literally: I nearly made Eagle) and don’t want to fudge even 1 thing into or out of my history. On the other hand, I have a hard time even listing all of my prior work experiences (let alone describing them) in 11-point font on one page.
What do you recommend?
PS: Great site. That’s an understatement.
Pretend you’ve met someone new. What do you say to introduce yourself in 2-3 sentences? Now, put that on your resume.
Thanks for the post, M&I. Not only is it overflowing with sound advice, but it also makes me feel better about myself! :)
Yup… you’d really be shocked if you saw everything / everyone that’s out there…
MI,
Thanks, the thing is I’m technically equivalent of a ‘Partner’ (went from a large firm to small shop where I am now part-owner). I’m already 28years old and labeling myself as ‘Partner’ on my resume might scare off HR, as I’m looking to jump into Analyst level (b/c of lack of finance, though I’d be happy with Associate assuming they’d do this).
This is why I have 2 pages, since I have so much responsibilities and encompass different aspects of the job. But I will try to cut down to 1 page.
I’m also thinking of downgrading my title to ‘Manager’ from ‘Owner/Partner’ so HR doesn’t get scared that I’m over-qualified, if that’s even possible considering I’m non-finance. Is this a good idea? Last question, promise. Thanks.
That’s probably a bad idea if you’re somewhere smaller… “Manager” is a better idea, otherwise they will assume you are over-qualified. Even as it stands right now, 5 years exp. probably makes you over-qualified for Analyst thought coming in higher-up will be difficult in today’s market.
This was a great post!
I go to a non-target school, that has an OK ranking business program (hi 20′s in the BusinessWeek list) but I have had three internships, one with a regional bank in front office (not IB), a Bulge Bracket but working in Operations, and currently working in front office (not IB) at a Custodian Bank in Europe. Another thing is my GPA is slightly under a 3.0 and have until May 2010 to raise it, but being realistic I know that its not going to get in the high 3′s let alone a 3.5. I’ve been networking in my office a little, but things are still uncertain (all internships have been about 4-6 months).
What are some other options I have?
With a low GPA you need to go around official recruiting channels and get in via networking.. for your school I’d bet that alumni networking is especially effective because they probably don’t get contacted by too many students in your position. Beyond that, if you’re in Europe it is easier to go to different cities and meet people there so you can consider that and going to bank- and recruiter-sponsored events and such to network if you’re interested in working there.
I would at least try to get to above a 3.0 but if you’re in that situation its not worth it to kill yourself to get to a 3.5 because it still won’t help much coming from a non-target.
Haha… Back to the Basics struck a chord. We are almost done with graduate recruitment for this year. Got an applicant who came in and ended the interview with ‘So, what exactly is investment banking?”
Hahahaha hilarious… but not unexpected.
Being able to package your story and send a consistent message with it is so true. I beleive sending the message that you can do the job is also as important, if not more, especially if your background is not in finance like mine. (2.9 GPA too!)
I moved to Asia in 2008 and was spared from being an English teacher, landing a job at an IB’s equities department in Nov. of 2008. Incredibly lucky, but now I realize that the message/story needs to be air tight and sold with conviction to HR, the employees, and management that interview you.
Yup, it’s all about the story… whether in sales or in interviews.
Hi,
All your post have been very informative and fun to read. It give you a good understanding of what I-Banking is all about. But I was wondering if you have any advise regarding getting into the Investment Management Divisions of a buldge bracket bank as an analyst. Also can you give advise for anyone wanting to go into Porfolio management?
I used to work in the operations department of a custodial bank as an analyst, and now I work for the state as a budget analyst. What should my stretagy be if i want to get into IMD as an analyst.
Thank you.
I don’t really know much about investment management / portfolio management, but a lot of the “fit” portion of interviews is the same.
Beyond networking a lot, you need to have a really good story for why you want to IMD as well as – helps to be able to point to investments of your own you’ve made, your interest in the markets, etc.
Hi Brian,
If a boutique has like 30 employees, would you still try to old call the MD directly? or should I target the analyst level?
Going for the MD is always your most effective tactic, but go for the Analyst if you can’t get through to the higher-ups.
I go to Northeastern University and am a Finance and Accounting major. We have a co-op program here where we do two or three 6 month internships. Currently, I’m working at one of the large mutual funds. For my next internship, I hope to land a position with one of the big banks(most of them hire a few students for each cycle). While my concentration GPA is 3.8, my overall GPA is only about 3.4, so I’m trying to do more things to make my resume stand out.
I’m in the process of starting a club football team here, and I’ll most likely be the president of that. I was also the captain of my high school football team. Do things like that appeal to employers enough to make up for my GPA?
I think you’re better-served by spending that time networking aggressively. No one cares too much about clubs unless its something that can change the world, and you already get the “football” point across from your high school experience.
Great website.
I recently transferred from a non-target to a target. My old school overall somewhat well-regarded (Top 50), but nowhere near my current school in terms of ibanking respect. I’ve spent less than a semester at my new university. Should I even list my old, non-target school on my resume?
Yes, you still need to list it and indicate that you transferred.
I recently completed my degree and I am in a master program. I transfered during undergrad, is it necessary to list the old school, because
1. I did worse at the old school
2. I didn’t major in a relevant subject
3. It would only serve to hurt my overall profile given my performance at my new school.
4. I would have to cut out great material on my resume to put something on that would only hurt my applications.
I have a very good reason for transfering, but i think it would only stop me from getting any interviews. I am at a non target school. I completed 105 credits at the transfer school. Can I leave it off without the fear the it coming back to bite me?
Yes you still have to list the old school otherwise you will get burned in background checks
I am from a non-target school, a 3.1 gpa and an MIS degree. I have been out of school for 5 years now but have had some great experience to put on my resume. From tech consulting, to entrepreneurship and now currently am a research analyst with a market consulting firm.
I have two questions:
1. Would an IB even consider me at the age of 30?
2. I don’t get a lot of finance experience at my current job and hence am considering going back and completing my finance undergrad requirements, hoping that it will makeup for my lack of financial skills. Would you advise me against it?
Thanks and this is a great blog. Very much to the point!!
1. Yes but only as an Associate.
2. That would help and is better than nothing, but an MBA program is your best bet at this point.
What about online applications ? What is in your opinion a realistic probability of landing an internship at BB in Europe through the usual online application process? Curious to know as research tells me that in the US most of the recruiting is done via the uni’s career services. Hence, I am assuming that coming from a non-target puts you at a significant disadvantage. Can you comment on whether online apps tend to be more important for BB than the oncampus recruiting ?
Thx!
If it’s done through your school i.e. you go to a top school and you have an official affiliation it’s fine but if you’re just applying on your own then the chance of success is much lower.
I have a 3.31 from a top 10 school…. i was a business analyst intern for a small local company last year. I am involved in two part time Research Positions at school and have strong (although not amazing) extracurriculars. Is it worth my time to apply to the big banks? I’m just afraid a 3.3 will push me off
You can apply but I would not focus on large banks
I am currently in first year, and my GPA seems to be about 3.7, but I did really horrible in first semester calculus (a 60%………..didn’t put in nearly enough effort). Will this course prevent me from getting in Ibanking? Please help!
no
I completed my generals at a community college and then transferred to the University where I am graduating this may. I have about 60 hours at each, 3.2 gpa at the comm. college and a 3.95 gpa at the University. Is it dishonest to not include the community college in my resume? Also is it dishonest to round that 3.95 up to a 4.0?
I’m not M&I, but I think the answer is obvious.
You can leave out that you have been to CC,
but I suggest you not round your GPA up.
There is a difference between a spotless 4.0 and a 3.95,
although both are extremely good.
Don’t round a 3.95. And you actually should leave the CC in otherwise it will come up in background checks.
I went to a top 50 university but unfortunately I did not know what I was working for and only ended up with a 2.5 gpa but with 3 yrs of retail banking experience which I know doesn’t mean much. Would it be worth my time to shoot for a boutique IB firm? Or get a few years of work experience doing something different and come back to IB?
It wouldn’t make much sense to do something different and then come back to IB, better to just go for a small firm now.
Greatly appreciate the insight, last question to follow up and I promise I’ll be out of your hair: would smaller firms even look at me with a low gpa? Or am I a lost cause haha
It really depends on how persistent you are… some places will dismiss you right away, while others will give you a chance. But if you don’t think you can do it, then you won’t be able to.
I fall into the low GPA from a non-target category. As you suggested, I’ll be applying to mostly boutiques.
3 questions:
1. How hard is it to lateral into a larger firm once I have some experience and a proven track record?
2. If I can’t make the move to a “better” place for whatever reason, what are the common exit opportunities for boutique analyst/associates?
3. Will boutique I-bank experience be more useful on a B-school app than management experience at a successful startup?
1. Not that difficult, especially in an improving market.
2. You would just go to smaller PE firms or do corporate development at smaller companies rather than the F500.
3. Hard to say – probably not dramatically different.
I do not have a finance background and I can’t explain enterprise value.
What’s the best/fastest/least expensive way to learn the important concepts?
Either sign up for one of the courses offered on this site or buy a book like The Recruiting Guide to Investment Banking that explains the basics.
Sold.
Will the Excel & Modeling Fundamentals do the trick?
That’s enough to prepare for interviews, yes (clearly I am biased here as the creator of the programs, but it is the most affordable option if you’re looking for training programs as opposed to books).
Is there a way you can include your summer school GPA into your cumulative GPA? Although my school lets you transfer credit from other schools and gives credit for equivalent courses, I don’t think they include your summer school grades into your cumulative. Would it be unethical to manually include the grades and put it on your resume? That seems more “cumulative” to me.
You can list it on your resume but probably can’t include it mathematically in your cumulative GPA.
With a 3.9GPA, and attending one of the best universities in the country, would you advise me to apply online for internships and other programmes at BB’s?
What would my chances be getting into a programme without networking?
You could apply online but it’s generally a waste of time unless it is directly through your school (on-campus recruiting). Either apply via your school or network but don’t spend much time on online applications. Without networking you might have a 30% chance of getting an internship.
What is a good way to enter the conversation when cold calling an alumni?
See the discussion of cold-calling here:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/turn-cold-calls-warm-follow-up-alumni-conversations/
Hi I’m currently a student in my first year I failed a few classes in my first semester so I have a GPA under 2.0 . Should I start networking and looking for leads for internships right away or wait until my second year or later when I can get my GPA >3.0 . By the Way I’m currently a Economics major that was a Math major that took too much advanced calculus than I could take.
You can start networking now but save most of it until your GPA is higher
Hi, I will graduate from a mid-range uni in Australia in the end of the year. Major finance/minor economics, my average is around 82%, god knows whats the GPA equivalent. I’m actually European, unfortunately had no internships during my studies here but about 6 months work experience before I came to Australia.
1. I’m 27 now, studied before Aussie but never graduated,is that a disadvantage?
2. What banks/entry positions should I ideally target? Or should I rather target other finance jobs such as consulting? Or jobs at KPMG,EY…etc.?
3. You know if any banks take grads as interns, if they dont have any previous experience or is this a no-go/shouldn’t even ask for?
4. Would you put a national title in sports (4x100m relay athletics) into your CV?
5. Should I try to convert Aussie marks to GPA? (Couldnt find any calculator so far)
Sorry to ask that much, but getting frustrated the more I search for IB jobs. Appreciate your answers. Cheers, Andreas
1. No.
2. With no internships you need to spread a wide net… apply to everything from Big 4 and so on to boutique banks up to large banks.
3. This is very rare, but some boutiques do it.
4. Sure.
5. I would only do it if you’re applying to banks in the US.
Hi again. Thanks for your quick response.
When you say “spread a wide net” do you mean cold-calling, alumni, general networking with friends etc? If yes, what are you trying to “sell” on the phone since most banks dont hire grads as interns? (called a bank this evening and they said they cant for legal resons).
So basically, I’m trying to get my name down etc for grad roles, am i right? Or do you have any other advice?
One other questions in regards to my internship at the risk company. Was rotating in different departments such as: accounting, HR, specific broking dpt. Would you recommend to sell different tasks that might be more appealing when I apply at banks? Or is it likely that they will check that info?
One last question, what grad roles/areas are providing the most insight into IB? Since banks offer such a vast variety, I am clueless which ones I should prefer…
Thanks, this site is the nuts, love it. Spending too much time on here reading instead of networking and cold-calling :P
Cheers! Andreas
Yes; see the Banker Blueprint and all the articles under Networking in the Recruiting category at the top of the page for guidance on cold calls and other networking strategies. I would emphasize the tasks that are most relevant to IB, so brokering is more relevant than accounting/HR. For other areas, corporate finance/development are closest to IB.
It’s me again, adding to my post:
Forgot to mention that my only work experience were about 6 months at a world leading risk management/insurance broker company. That is about 4 years ago now. Does that help me at all or am I treated the same like any other student without specific finance experience?
Yeah that would be viewed as a quasi-internship, so about the same as other students, maybe a bit better.
Luckily I found this. I wrote that I performed comparable analysis for companies on the target’s list (I did ER) to see how they stand among each other. What I did was simply gathering the statistics on Bloomberg and put it into the pre-built model. Purely plugging number, nothing else. If I got asked the “walk me through how you spread comps”, how would I respond? Should I adhere to the truth (which I guess would make it sound like a really mindless task)? Thank you.
Well, spreading comps really is just plugging in numbers… walk through how you picked companies, how you selected the right stats, and then how you looked up projections on Bloomberg. Even if you didn’t actually do the first 2, just explain the reasoning in the model.
I have a 3.4gpa and graduated with public administration and a minor in economics. I have no previous finance work experience, but have worked at retail for about 3 yrs. Is it very difficult to get into Finance without having a Finance degree?
The issue is that you haven’t worked in a related field like consulting or even engineering – at this stage your best move is business school.
so are you suggesting i should go for my MA in Finance? There is no way they will hire me for an internship unless i have experience with Finance? but i thought being an Analyst you can start with no experience no?
No, I’m suggesting an MBA. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/business-school-rebranding/
Thanks….one last thing….is it easy to move from Analyst position into a operations position? checking P&L and reconciling?
Not sure I understand your question because most people move from operations to somewhere else rather than the other way around.
Thank you for the advices!! I like operations more than anything..somehow…but have been warned that many people move away from it…haha…
I am graduating from a non-target liberal arts college with a major in International Business & Management. My GPA now is 3.4. I want to apply for middle and back office jobs in the large banks. I interned at a IT firm in their sales/business development deparment. I also worked in wealth management in one of the largest banks.
I have some solid contacts in some major banks. Do you think I have chance to get a job with them after graduation?
Sure
Hi , I am graduating from a good university but with a low GPA ( 2.5) . However I have two I-Banking internships on my resume. Realistically Do I have a chance of getting an I-Banking job with one of the bulge bracket banks or even the smaller botique banks?
Bulge brackets would be tough with a 2.5 GPA, boutiques you have a better shot at.
how did u get two i-banking internships? please help.
Hi. I graduated with a low GPA (less than 3.0) from a top 50 school, but my school specializes in the sciences (I initially majored in chemistry, but decided it wasn’t for me, so I went with Economics instead). I have no i-banking and no finance internships/experience, because I traveled the world during my vacation breaks. It’s been a year since I graduated, and I’ve been working crappy jobs to pay the bills. Honestly, do I have a chance in getting an i-banking job? I’ve been shotgunning my resume (which isn’t dazzling in the first place) to anyone who seems to be hiring, ranging from hedge funds, i-banks, prop shops, etc.. So far, I’ve had zero results, and I’m becoming discouraged that maybe I’m not meant to be going into this field. Any advice?
At this point you don’t have a good chance because you have a low GPA and no internships. Go for related fields like commercial banking, corporate finance, and so on, and then move in later once you have experience.
Hi thanks a lot for all the great info!
I recently graduated from a top 30 semi-target public school with a financial math and economics double-major background. Before that, I was at a non-target public school. that’s why I decided to transfer. My cumulative GPA during junior and senior years was only 2.9, but I had a 3.8 at the first school. Right now I’m interning at a nyc boutique bank in the banking team doing reverse mergers and some IPOs. Seldom does the firm have M&A/structuring deals. I guess my questions are as follows:
1. I know I shall separate my grades from two schools on my resume, but shall i still list my junior and senior GPAs even though it sucked? (my major GPA wasn’t glamorous either, since pretty much all i took were major courses to catch up the transfer course load)
2. My firm has agreed to sponsor my series exams (7 & 79), but hasn’t made it clear whether they’d like to offer me full-time or not, which quite depends on their head count and if they can close some deals in the next few months. Shall I keep looking for other opportunities elsewhere? what kind of shops shall I target at? Do I have a chance for bulge brackets?
3. Right now I’ve very limited exposure to financial modeling at work, how shall I build my modeling skills?
Thanks a lot!
1. You should list your GPA for each school.
2. Yes, keep looking for other opportunities… focus on boutiques because BBs are very difficult with a low GPA and if you’ve already graduated.
3. Books, training programs such as the ones offered on this site, asking friends for models and practicing, and so on.
Thanks for your prompt reply!
a couple of follow-up questions:
1. to make up for the low GPA, besides networking, would series exams give me an edge in looking for jobs with another boutique/middle market bank? or do I actually get to nail GMAT?
2. this can be very trivial, but i’ve been with the firm for almost 2 months now, and i plan to stick it out for another month or so before I test water their intention of hiring me. If I don’t get a clear answer from them by then, how am i supposed to spin around my answer to “why not keep striving for a full-time offer at the current firm” from my next potential employer? The reason I put a deadline with them is that it’s an unpaid internship so it’s unrealistic for me to do grunt work for free for 60,70 hrs/wk for half a year (Personally I think it’s unethical to abuse interns this way, but I guess that’s a trend for a lot of boutiques nowadays). Do you think I shall stick with them and show persistence even if they turn me down after 3 or 4 months? Can I utilize the firm’s network resource to look for outside opportunities during my endless “trial period”?
Thanks so much!
1. Certifications won’t help, the GMAT may be a good idea though.
2. Just tell them that you appreciated the opportunity to work at the other firm and performed well but it wasn’t the best cultural fit, so you’re looking to move elsewhere. It’s not about getting an offer vs. not getting an offer.
I would not stick around if they turn you down after 3-4 months – not worth it to work unpaid for 60-70 hours per week.
I am a sophmore at a non-target school and have a 3.0 gpa. I just learned that my girlfriends neighbor and family friend owns his own PE firm. How should I approach the situation? Should i just cold call him? E-mail him? My goal is to possibly get an internship at his firm next year. Keep in mind I have never met him before and I don’t have any background in finance besides the few courses I have taken at school.
Thanks in advance.
Just ask for an introduction… much better than cold-calling or cold-emailing. Ask for 10-15 minutes to chat about his background: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-informational-interviews/
I was wondering what to do in this situation:
I started at a state school, went to CC and transferred to a semi-target
Unfortunately I was too used to CC and my current school’s GPA is unacceptable to put on my resume (just under 3). My average from all 3 schools is ~3.4 but I don’t want any ethical issues to arise. Should I just leave off GPAs completely? I currently have all 3 schools on resume but left off GPA
Thanks
also are firms willing to have interns during winter break (2-3 weeks)? is that small amount of time possible/worth it or should i just focus on summer gigs?
Normally that is too short a time period for internships
Keep in the overall 3.4 but list the other GPAs after it
Thanks. Wouldn’t having that 2.x at my current school be an automatic ding though?
You could leave it off if you want but they will probably ask for it / review transcripts at some point.
Hi,
I go to Kogod School of Business at American University, Washington DC. Is this a non-target school and have you even heard of it? Businessweek ranked us as Top 30 but I don’t know.
I currently have a 3.0 overall (switched majors) but I have a 3.5 in the business school (major GPA). Do employers take into consideration the major GPA more or does the overall GPA, which was almost 50 credits in political science, count more? With this do I have 0% at a BB? Should I focus on boutiques?
Thank you
Heard of it but I don’t think it’s a target school. Focus on networking and boutiques and possibly a Master’s Program in Finance; they do look at major GPA but overall GPA still counts more heavily.
Hi,
I’m a junior studying finance at UIUC with a GPA of 3.45. I’ve had 4 semesters with GPAs above 3.5 and one with a mere 2.8(I really regret that semester). My cousin, a managing director at GS, was just telling me how GPA is a HUGE factor with the BB investment banking firms. One of her co workers, who graduated from UIUC with a finance degree, told her that he would expect a GPA of at least a 3.8(she says hes a complete hardass). Now, what I’m wondering is, should I even focus on the BB investment banking firms? It’s almost the end of December and I am just starting to apply for a summer internship position. I haven’t networked much, what do you suggest I do now? Is it okay to start network now? Or will it seem like I am just calling for a posiiton?
Yes, still apply to BBs… 3.5 is not spectacular but it’s usually good enough. But do some networking as well and spend your time and energy on smaller firms… it’s fine to start now but you will have to focus on smaller places that finish recruiting later.
So I am currently at a top school and had an internship in finance & accounting but not banking. I do have a low gpa, just slightly under a 3.0, but I am hoping to get it over a 3.0 by the time I graduate. I am searching for jobs in investment banking and consulting. I have had a difficult time landing interviews, do you have any suggestions other than networking which I am beginning to do now?
See this interview: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-from-state-school-no-finance-background/
I just finished my 1st quarter in a top-tier MBA program. I networked with all the banks that came on campus like crazy this first quarter and was very active in banking-related extracurricular activities. Unfortunately, I didn’t handle the marathon of final exams as well as I should and could have, having been out of school for a number of years and being rusty academically, and ended up doing pretty poorly grade-wise this first quarter. Although I’m certain I will recover remarkably in the coming quarters, banks will only look at my 1st quarter grades for summer internship consideration. Is it game-over for me? Or, is this something I can explain away during an interview if I do well with the technical questions?
I don’t think they pay as much attention to grades in MBA programs, plus you could explain it away by pointing to your other achievements and technical knowledge.
Hi. Hope all is well. I have worked in Corporate FP&A for about 5 years as a Sr. Analyst.The industries i have worked in are capital management,construction and mining, and medical. I have some experience with trade recievable programs and i understand the need for increased working capital. I’m an excel expert. I have experience with building excel allocation models.
1) Does this give me the experience needed to break into the industry?
2)If so, can i break in without and MBA? I have a BS in Management from a no name school…Low GPA but is in no means reflective of my work ethic.
Your input is very much appreciated. Thank you
1) Yes but you might actually have too much experience.
2) Potentially yes but again the issue might be too much experience.
Brian, I am currently a sophomore and working parttime at a big custodian bank (think BNY, STT, BNP), doing securities pricing and valuation. How would you spin this around and leverage this exp for ibanking SA position?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/sales-trading-to-investment-banking/
I have a serious doubt I’ve been through a few interviews at this firm and I told them that my grades would put me in the 20% higher of my class, but in fact I have placed in the top 25% and I haven’t sent them yet my resume. What should I do about my resume, change to 20% or show real 25%? Regards for all the help!!
Just say 25% no one will remember anyway
Far and away it is to know someone very well who is in a position to hire you and take the risk. I would say the second best way is to be a phenomenal sales person. What separates the true bsd rainmakers from most of your straight a harvard analysts who well never get to the 7 figure after tax income isn’t some crazy modeling ability. It is their ability to effectively communicate, sell and build relationships. These guys often know the people working for them are “smarter” and if you can find one of them that sees a little bit of themselves, in you, then you can sort of bipass the veto from a lot of straight-a ivy league lower tier guys who would normally never give you a chance. I started on the bear fi trading floor where there was more then one person making fu money who didn’t have a college diploma because ace greenberg decided they were worth the risk. So much of finance, at least at the hirer levels is your ability to sell.
Hi!
First of all I would like to thank you for this wonderful site and for the time commitment it took to get all this useful information across.
Do BB (and other employers) think differently of a bachelor degree if it is awarded in a distance learning programmme instead of the traditional on-campus learning?
My actual situation: I’m an undergraduate student with high GPA on the best university (economics and finance) in my country (Serbia, Eastern Europe), and I am also an undergrad of banking and finance at LSE (distance learning, obviously).
So, will I be viewed differently if I’m a distance learner?
In your opinion, should I quit the Serbian university altogether (considering it isn’t a target school) or is finishing two study courses at once such an amazing accomplishment on it’s own that can make me stand out from the crowd?
I’m sorry if similar questions have already been answered, but I couldn’t find the answers anywhere. Thank you in advance.
I think it’s less of an issue in Europe since everyone applies online anyway. I would just finish the program since you’re almost done anyway.
Thank you for your reply, but perhaps I phrased the question wrong. After I graduate, I plan to come to NYC to work there in IB. Do employers there think that a distance learning diploma is not as good as an actual, on-campus diploma? Or, if you don’t know the answer to that question, if you were my employer, would you think of me differently because I have a distance learning Bsc from LSE?
Can I sign up for your ninja toolkit and financial modeling course even if I am from Serbia?
In the US they will discount a distance learning diploma, yes – and in general they tend to discount experience outside of markets like the US and UK. I think it is less of an issue in Europe because of how the recruiting process works there. And yes, you should be able to sign up for the programs offered here no matter where you’re from.
Hello,
I am graduating in May with 3.6 GPA at a no name non-target school. I made about 7 or 8 cold calls and about 40 cold e-mails. I got 3 responses from MDs, and they told me that they weren’t hiring. Can you please give me some suggestions? Thank you very much.
See this article: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/cold-calling-investment-banking/
And everything under case studies here: http://mergersandinquisitions.com/recruiting
I just finished my second year at a non-target university in Canada. I currently have a 2.5 CGPA, but a 3.65 Major GPA. I was not serious about school and my grades until I discovered iBanking and how competitive it is to break in. Therefore I was wondering if you can provide some advice on the following questions:
1. If I apply to investment banking/asset management internships in the summer of my junior year, would I still be able to get interviews even though my CGPA is low? For example, if they see a significant improvement on my transcript ( 4th semester GPA = 3.9, 5th semester = 3.8, and 6th semester = 3.9).
2. Is it possible to skip the CGPA requirement if I network like crazy and convince a banker that although my CGPA is low, I have been working extremely hard to break in (Improvement in grades, good EC’s, read technical/interview guides, etc)
I am worried that my CGPA is going to put a serious strain on my application as most internship’s request a transcript along with your cover letter and resume. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks so much!
1. Probably not through official channels, you’d have to network a lot and get lucky.
2. Yes but mostly at very small banks.
There are a couple other interviews here with readers who had low GPAs so you may want to search for “GPA” in the search box and read those as well.
Thank You!
good article, thanks..I will begin my pursuit of a MBA in the near future, and I am strongly considering a concentration in Finance. However, my bachelors degree is completely unrelated to the field, so I am a little concerned about how Potential employers’ will perceive me and my education. Should I be? thanks in advance
With an MBA undergrad degree doesn’t matter as much but your previous experience does. So if its not finance-related get a finance-related pre-MBA internship http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/business-school-rebranding/
Hello,
I have 9 years experience in IT project Management worked for few fortune 500 companies in the 9 years. I also hold a MBA and MS in computer Sc. I am currently burnt out in IT want to make a transition into Finance. Will that be possible ? Is there a chance that I may end up getting a job Finance. Any advice.
If you already have an MBA your chances aren’t great. You might have a better chance on the trading side as they want people with technical backgrounds.
Hello,
I am a 17 year old Canadian high school student interested in working as an investment banker. I have taken my SATS and my scores are high enough to get into most good American schools. Which American programs undergraduate business programs/schools are regarded as the best by recruiters for investment banking and finance? Additionally, If I were to stay in Canada and get an undergraduate business degree there, which universities are regarded as the best by wall street recruiters? Finally, is getting an undergraduate business degree from a school like Wharton better than majoring in economics from a liberal arts school like Harvard?
-Thanks
The Ivy League + anything else in the top 10. Canada: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-canada/
Thank you. So what programs are considered the top ten american undergraduate business ones and which Canadian one is regarded the best, queens, mcgill, ivey, shulich or ubc’s sauder school of business?
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities