How to Break Into Finance with a Low GPA, No Finance Experience, and Without Going to a Top School: 4 Mistakes to Avoid and 3 Strategies to Embrace
It’s one of the most common questions/complaints I get…
“All your advice is focused on people at top schools! What about the rest of us!”
“You assume that we have 4.0 GPAs in finance programs!”
“What do I do if I’ve been a door-to-door insurance salesman for the past 10 years?”
Never mind that advice on topics like networking applies to everyone – and that we’ve addressed how to get in from different backgrounds several times before, with more coming up in the near future.
Today I’ll share a few stories from readers who work at banks and are responsible for interviewing potential new hires – and a story from one reader who recently did exactly what the title suggests:
He got into finance with poor grades, no finance experience, and did it coming from an unknown school.
Here’s how he did it…
What NOT to Do
Let’s start with a few stories from readers who are working in investment banking right now and interviewing potential intern and full-time hires.
Read each of these, and then do the exact opposite of what the person in the story did.
1. Potential New Hires at a Boutique: Back to the Basics
Here’s a portion of an email I received from an Associate at a boutique investment bank who has been interviewing potential interns recently:
“It seems unbelievable, but most of the resumes we got were poorly formatted and had typos. What are they thinking? Also, it was shocking to me how many people had no idea about basic business and accounting concepts like enterprise value and working capital. Even more shocking was how many students claimed their ignorance was understandable because their university did not have a business program.”
Lessons Learned: Go back to the basics. If your resume has typos and you can’t explain enterprise value, your chances are pretty low these days – we’re not in 2006 anymore.
Despite how competitive it is at bulge brackets and how few places are hiring, it’s still worth remembering that the majority of applicants don’t even get the basics right… and at true regional boutiques, you run into even fewer interviewees who know their stuff 100%.
It goes back to a point we made months ago: don’t overestimate the competition.
2. The Guy Who Couldn’t Take No for an Answer: Avoid “Jack Bauer”-Style Networking
This story comes from a friend who works at a boutique outside the US. This was an in-person story, so I’ll quote my friend as accurately as possible:
“I had one guy who requested an informational meeting with me… so we met for coffee once. I could tell that he didn’t know that much, and during the meeting he was trying way too hard to impress me rather than just being himself. I told him we weren’t hiring anyone at the moment, but he kept pressing me for more meetings.
Within 2 weeks, he had emailed me about 5 times asking if I was free for more informational interviews. By the 5th email I basically stopped responding to him.”
Lessons Learned: Persistence is good… to a certain degree. You have to read your contacts and decide who likes you, who is open to further discussions, and who doesn’t want to have anything to do with you.
Remember, a networking ninja is stealthy – but emailing someone 5 times in 2 weeks is the complete opposite. Rather than subtly extracting information from your target, you’re more like Jack Bauer torturing a suspected terrorist to get information on the next attack.
Subtlety comes with practice and there’s no quick-fix solution: the best advice is to get out there and start talking to people. If no one responds favorably, re-think your approach and ask your friends and anyone you’ve spoken with for honest feedback.
It’s probably too aggressive to contact someone more than once every few weeks unless you know him/her very well and have extremely specific questions.
Even in a recession, a BIG part of going from networking newbie to networking ninja is determining your “most valuable” contacts and acting accordingly.
3. The “Finance Expert”: Tell the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth
In these times it’s tempting to claim that you have a ton of finance experience to stand out – and that temptation is especially strong if you don’t have top grades, a banking internship, or an Ivy League name on your resume.
But bankers can detect that type of deception instantly, and will always call you out on it – as in this story from a friend who just interviewed one candidate:
“Had a guy who told me he has ‘built financial models and performed relative valuation such as trading comps and transaction comps.’
I asked him to walk me through how he spread those comps… and then he just stumbled and started going off on a tangent for 5 minutes without actually answering the question. Not knowing is one thing, but his biggest mistake was lying about it.”
Lessons Learned: Don’t lie, especially about something that the interviewer can easily determine is a lie – whether it’s “fluent in Mandarin” or “knowing how to spread trading comps.”
It’s one thing if you’re exaggerating your role in a “company you founded” (with your friends in a backyard in high school) and the facts are harder to check, but when it’s something concrete you can’t afford fabrication.
Only bend the truth when you won’t get called on it and when it benefits you in some way.
4. The “Steep Learning Curve”: Wait, Why Did You Want to Do Investment Banking Again?
It’s amazing, but some interviewees have no idea why they’re actually applying to investment banking jobs. I get at least 1 email per month asking what the “best reason to say you want to do i-banking” is… and here’s the truth:
Think for yourself about why you actually want to do it and use that as your reason.
And make sure you have a good reason – unlike the guy below (another story from a friend at a boutique)
“Another guy told me he wanted to get into i-banking ‘because nowhere else would provide a steeper learning curve where he could learn the most in two years.’ He kept rambling on about learning… but I had no clue WHAT he wanted to learn – so I asked him if he wanted to learn i-banking, or learn how to learn… he was TONGUE TIED.”
Lessons Learned: Your “story” and answer to “why i-banking” (or “why PE,” “why consulting,” “why anything”) are the most important parts of any interview – and if you have bad answers, you’ll never make it past the first round.
Saying something generic like “I want to learn” CAN work but you need to elaborate and say what it is you want to learn specifically – and then tie it into your background and what you’ve done before.
A tech consultant saying he wants to understand the big picture of the industry when applying for tech banking makes sense… but saying that you just have a lifelong passion for learning as your only reason doesn’t.
From Failure to Success: Getting in With a Low GPA, No Background, and No Top School
No matter what your grades and education are like, you absolutely need to have your “story” together and have good answers to the basic questions.
But if you’re not coming from a “4.0 at Harvard” background, you may be tempted to exaggerate and be overly aggressive when networking, both of which can hurt you.
Here’s how one reader avoided all that and got into finance despite having a low GPA, no prior experience, AND after he had already been working full-time in another industry:
“I know that in one of your recent posts a reader had mentioned that they wanted to hear a story about someone who came from a non-target school, with a lower-than-average GPA, and no finance experience, who made their way into the industry.
Well, I am that person! I went to a small non-target college that no one has heard of, and got under a 3.0 there (though I got a 4.0 on the social scale!).
I’ve been working for the past few years as a tech consultant, though I also did some management consulting-type work.
I recently got an offer from a hybrid banking/consulting boutique, and did it by networking with an alum from my school who I cold-called. He was fairly high-up so it was a good decision to go to him directly.
During my interview process, rather than getting technical questions on accounting and finance, I was asked to provide sample work product showing my writing, presentation, and basic modeling abilities.
I know that’s not the norm at bulge brackets, but I think anyone applying to boutiques and hybrid firms should know that – especially if you have some full-time work experience, showing them what you can do (literally) plays a big role in getting offers.”
Lessons Learned:
1. Although he didn’t go to a target school with a strong network in finance, he used that to his advantage by cold-calling someone high-up and using the rare alumni card to get an “in.”
How many calls do you think someone like that gets?
Not many if he’s from a non-target school.
2. He leveraged his background by applying to a hybrid firm rather than a pure bank. By appropriately spinning his consulting experience, he made it sound like he was well-suited for the position.
And since it was a boutique, his chances were higher to begin with. Any type of hybrid consulting firm focused on restructuring and turnarounds is a good bet these days, because they’re one of the few types of firms still actively hiring.
3. There’s more than one way to impress. Especially for anyone working full-time and applying to small firms, bringing in examples of your previous work is an effective and often-overlooked strategy.
You have a big advantage over anyone still in school, because you’ve already proven yourself in another field – and you need to use that to your advantage.
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Thanks for this post.
I am a fresh graduate from a top university in Turkey. I joined a newly founded investment advisory&engineering firm which will focuse on niche markets in emerging countries.
In these weeks, we are accepting our first interns. But when we see the CVs, we got shocked.
Applications via email were disastrous.
-Most of CVs were mistyped.
-Most of CV were full of relatively unimportant things, unnecessary certificates which silly people even may get.
-No attention to detail about the job application.
- AND most of the them only attach CV, no further explanation.
I believe most of the applicants are more worthy than their attached CVs. However, they do not allow us to know them truly.
Yup that sounds in line with what I’ve seen elsewhere… for all the talk about how bad the market is and how no one is hiring, most people are still not approaching the recruiting process in the right way.
I am a Junior at a non-target school with a GPA in the low 3′s. I have a front office SA position in IBD at an MM. I got the position mainly through networking, but also because I had my resume and CV extensively reviewed and edited by anyone I knew in finance who would look at it. I also knew basic accounting and finance concepts (despite no accounting or finance coursework) and was prepared for those questions when asked during the interview.
How did you learn the accounting and finance concepts?
Great advice.
How important is it that a resume be one page? I am 5 years in tech consulting and have much experience (mostly non-finance), so my resume is 2 pages long. Despite this, do you think it wise to still add CV?
It should always be 1 page unless you are an MD-level hire or are in a region like Australia where 2+ pages is common and acceptable.
I would strongly recommend cutting it down to 1.
I have over 10 years’ worth of experience and 2 masters degrees, so 1 page is difficult for me too. I understand the imperative — I just don’t know how to do it.
On one hand, I’m a total Boy Scout (literally: I nearly made Eagle) and don’t want to fudge even 1 thing into or out of my history. On the other hand, I have a hard time even listing all of my prior work experiences (let alone describing them) in 11-point font on one page.
What do you recommend?
PS: Great site. That’s an understatement.
Pretend you’ve met someone new. What do you say to introduce yourself in 2-3 sentences? Now, put that on your resume.
Thanks for the post, M&I. Not only is it overflowing with sound advice, but it also makes me feel better about myself! :)
Yup… you’d really be shocked if you saw everything / everyone that’s out there…
MI,
Thanks, the thing is I’m technically equivalent of a ‘Partner’ (went from a large firm to small shop where I am now part-owner). I’m already 28years old and labeling myself as ‘Partner’ on my resume might scare off HR, as I’m looking to jump into Analyst level (b/c of lack of finance, though I’d be happy with Associate assuming they’d do this).
This is why I have 2 pages, since I have so much responsibilities and encompass different aspects of the job. But I will try to cut down to 1 page.
I’m also thinking of downgrading my title to ‘Manager’ from ‘Owner/Partner’ so HR doesn’t get scared that I’m over-qualified, if that’s even possible considering I’m non-finance. Is this a good idea? Last question, promise. Thanks.
That’s probably a bad idea if you’re somewhere smaller… “Manager” is a better idea, otherwise they will assume you are over-qualified. Even as it stands right now, 5 years exp. probably makes you over-qualified for Analyst thought coming in higher-up will be difficult in today’s market.
This was a great post!
I go to a non-target school, that has an OK ranking business program (hi 20′s in the BusinessWeek list) but I have had three internships, one with a regional bank in front office (not IB), a Bulge Bracket but working in Operations, and currently working in front office (not IB) at a Custodian Bank in Europe. Another thing is my GPA is slightly under a 3.0 and have until May 2010 to raise it, but being realistic I know that its not going to get in the high 3′s let alone a 3.5. I’ve been networking in my office a little, but things are still uncertain (all internships have been about 4-6 months).
What are some other options I have?
With a low GPA you need to go around official recruiting channels and get in via networking.. for your school I’d bet that alumni networking is especially effective because they probably don’t get contacted by too many students in your position. Beyond that, if you’re in Europe it is easier to go to different cities and meet people there so you can consider that and going to bank- and recruiter-sponsored events and such to network if you’re interested in working there.
I would at least try to get to above a 3.0 but if you’re in that situation its not worth it to kill yourself to get to a 3.5 because it still won’t help much coming from a non-target.
Haha… Back to the Basics struck a chord. We are almost done with graduate recruitment for this year. Got an applicant who came in and ended the interview with ‘So, what exactly is investment banking?”
Hahahaha hilarious… but not unexpected.
Being able to package your story and send a consistent message with it is so true. I beleive sending the message that you can do the job is also as important, if not more, especially if your background is not in finance like mine. (2.9 GPA too!)
I moved to Asia in 2008 and was spared from being an English teacher, landing a job at an IB’s equities department in Nov. of 2008. Incredibly lucky, but now I realize that the message/story needs to be air tight and sold with conviction to HR, the employees, and management that interview you.
Yup, it’s all about the story… whether in sales or in interviews.
Hi,
All your post have been very informative and fun to read. It give you a good understanding of what I-Banking is all about. But I was wondering if you have any advise regarding getting into the Investment Management Divisions of a buldge bracket bank as an analyst. Also can you give advise for anyone wanting to go into Porfolio management?
I used to work in the operations department of a custodial bank as an analyst, and now I work for the state as a budget analyst. What should my stretagy be if i want to get into IMD as an analyst.
Thank you.
I don’t really know much about investment management / portfolio management, but a lot of the “fit” portion of interviews is the same.
Beyond networking a lot, you need to have a really good story for why you want to IMD as well as – helps to be able to point to investments of your own you’ve made, your interest in the markets, etc.
Hi Brian,
If a boutique has like 30 employees, would you still try to old call the MD directly? or should I target the analyst level?
Going for the MD is always your most effective tactic, but go for the Analyst if you can’t get through to the higher-ups.
I go to Northeastern University and am a Finance and Accounting major. We have a co-op program here where we do two or three 6 month internships. Currently, I’m working at one of the large mutual funds. For my next internship, I hope to land a position with one of the big banks(most of them hire a few students for each cycle). While my concentration GPA is 3.8, my overall GPA is only about 3.4, so I’m trying to do more things to make my resume stand out.
I’m in the process of starting a club football team here, and I’ll most likely be the president of that. I was also the captain of my high school football team. Do things like that appeal to employers enough to make up for my GPA?
I think you’re better-served by spending that time networking aggressively. No one cares too much about clubs unless its something that can change the world, and you already get the “football” point across from your high school experience.
Great website.
I recently transferred from a non-target to a target. My old school overall somewhat well-regarded (Top 50), but nowhere near my current school in terms of ibanking respect. I’ve spent less than a semester at my new university. Should I even list my old, non-target school on my resume?
Yes, you still need to list it and indicate that you transferred.
I recently completed my degree and I am in a master program. I transfered during undergrad, is it necessary to list the old school, because
1. I did worse at the old school
2. I didn’t major in a relevant subject
3. It would only serve to hurt my overall profile given my performance at my new school.
4. I would have to cut out great material on my resume to put something on that would only hurt my applications.
I have a very good reason for transfering, but i think it would only stop me from getting any interviews. I am at a non target school. I completed 105 credits at the transfer school. Can I leave it off without the fear the it coming back to bite me?
Yes you still have to list the old school otherwise you will get burned in background checks
I am from a non-target school, a 3.1 gpa and an MIS degree. I have been out of school for 5 years now but have had some great experience to put on my resume. From tech consulting, to entrepreneurship and now currently am a research analyst with a market consulting firm.
I have two questions:
1. Would an IB even consider me at the age of 30?
2. I don’t get a lot of finance experience at my current job and hence am considering going back and completing my finance undergrad requirements, hoping that it will makeup for my lack of financial skills. Would you advise me against it?
Thanks and this is a great blog. Very much to the point!!
1. Yes but only as an Associate.
2. That would help and is better than nothing, but an MBA program is your best bet at this point.
What about online applications ? What is in your opinion a realistic probability of landing an internship at BB in Europe through the usual online application process? Curious to know as research tells me that in the US most of the recruiting is done via the uni’s career services. Hence, I am assuming that coming from a non-target puts you at a significant disadvantage. Can you comment on whether online apps tend to be more important for BB than the oncampus recruiting ?
Thx!
If it’s done through your school i.e. you go to a top school and you have an official affiliation it’s fine but if you’re just applying on your own then the chance of success is much lower.
I have a 3.31 from a top 10 school…. i was a business analyst intern for a small local company last year. I am involved in two part time Research Positions at school and have strong (although not amazing) extracurriculars. Is it worth my time to apply to the big banks? I’m just afraid a 3.3 will push me off
You can apply but I would not focus on large banks
I am currently in first year, and my GPA seems to be about 3.7, but I did really horrible in first semester calculus (a 60%………..didn’t put in nearly enough effort). Will this course prevent me from getting in Ibanking? Please help!
no
I completed my generals at a community college and then transferred to the University where I am graduating this may. I have about 60 hours at each, 3.2 gpa at the comm. college and a 3.95 gpa at the University. Is it dishonest to not include the community college in my resume? Also is it dishonest to round that 3.95 up to a 4.0?
I’m not M&I, but I think the answer is obvious.
You can leave out that you have been to CC,
but I suggest you not round your GPA up.
There is a difference between a spotless 4.0 and a 3.95,
although both are extremely good.
Don’t round a 3.95. And you actually should leave the CC in otherwise it will come up in background checks.
I went to a top 50 university but unfortunately I did not know what I was working for and only ended up with a 2.5 gpa but with 3 yrs of retail banking experience which I know doesn’t mean much. Would it be worth my time to shoot for a boutique IB firm? Or get a few years of work experience doing something different and come back to IB?
It wouldn’t make much sense to do something different and then come back to IB, better to just go for a small firm now.
Greatly appreciate the insight, last question to follow up and I promise I’ll be out of your hair: would smaller firms even look at me with a low gpa? Or am I a lost cause haha
It really depends on how persistent you are… some places will dismiss you right away, while others will give you a chance. But if you don’t think you can do it, then you won’t be able to.
I fall into the low GPA from a non-target category. As you suggested, I’ll be applying to mostly boutiques.
3 questions:
1. How hard is it to lateral into a larger firm once I have some experience and a proven track record?
2. If I can’t make the move to a “better” place for whatever reason, what are the common exit opportunities for boutique analyst/associates?
3. Will boutique I-bank experience be more useful on a B-school app than management experience at a successful startup?
1. Not that difficult, especially in an improving market.
2. You would just go to smaller PE firms or do corporate development at smaller companies rather than the F500.
3. Hard to say – probably not dramatically different.
I do not have a finance background and I can’t explain enterprise value.
What’s the best/fastest/least expensive way to learn the important concepts?
Either sign up for one of the courses offered on this site or buy a book like The Recruiting Guide to Investment Banking that explains the basics.
Sold.
Will the Excel & Modeling Fundamentals do the trick?
That’s enough to prepare for interviews, yes (clearly I am biased here as the creator of the programs, but it is the most affordable option if you’re looking for training programs as opposed to books).
Is there a way you can include your summer school GPA into your cumulative GPA? Although my school lets you transfer credit from other schools and gives credit for equivalent courses, I don’t think they include your summer school grades into your cumulative. Would it be unethical to manually include the grades and put it on your resume? That seems more “cumulative” to me.
You can list it on your resume but probably can’t include it mathematically in your cumulative GPA.
With a 3.9GPA, and attending one of the best universities in the country, would you advise me to apply online for internships and other programmes at BB’s?
What would my chances be getting into a programme without networking?
You could apply online but it’s generally a waste of time unless it is directly through your school (on-campus recruiting). Either apply via your school or network but don’t spend much time on online applications. Without networking you might have a 30% chance of getting an internship.
What is a good way to enter the conversation when cold calling an alumni?
See the discussion of cold-calling here:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/turn-cold-calls-warm-follow-up-alumni-conversations/