Degrees and Certifications: Got CFA + JD + MBA + MD?
After a long absence, my favorite topic is back: no, not GPA rounding, ranking the banks, or re-assuring you that your “career path” is correct, but degrees and certifications.
Despite my best efforts to bash certifications and give snarky responses to related questions, there’s still confusion on what banks care about, what you can do with different degrees, and the meaning of life.
While I can’t help with the meaning of life (42?), I can tell you which degrees and certifications mean something and help you break into finance – and which will not.
Why the Hate? You’re Already Biased!
I’ve seen lots of aspiring bankers use degrees and certifications as a distraction from more important goals, like getting solid internships, networking, and even getting leadership roles in groups.
You may also think that degrees and certifications are a magic bullet: sure, you have a 2.1 GPA from an unknown school and you’ve worked in telemarketing for 5 years, but if you get that Bloomberg certification, Goldman Sachs will give you an offer right away, right?
Maybe I should get into the business of selling certifications with logic like this…
Definitions: Investment Banking / Private Equity vs. Other Fields
The usefulness of degrees and certifications varies widely by the field of finance you’re interested in.
For example, if you want to be in risk management then the FRM exam is essential; if you’re doing portfolio management or equity research, the CFA is viewed as a requirement. And bankers, of course, don’t care about either of those.
I’m focusing on investment banking and private equity here because that’s what this site is about and what you’re interested in if you’re reading this right now.
For more on other fields and where certifications might be useful, check out these articles from Bionic Turtle:
5 Degrees Above Zero
Let’s start with degrees since they’re less painful to write about.
The only degrees that banks care about are Bachelor’s, Master’s, and MBA degrees, and only for very specific reasons.
But just for fun, let’s jump through the entire list and learn why – and what to do if you’ve taken the plunge into JD/PhD/MD land.
High School / Secondary School
Please, no more questions from 16-year olds who want to get an investment banking internship. Go outside and play in the sun, you’re probably Vitamin D-deficient anyway.
This one is just a check-the-box requirement at banks, and if you’ve only graduated high school you won’t be able to do anything real – you need at least an undergraduate degree (maybe you could work as an assistant but is that what you want to do?).
Your actual performance in secondary school matters more in countries like the UK where A-Levels are huge – in the US, listing high school grades or AP scores on your resume when applying to banking jobs is silly. And where you went to school only matters if it’s somewhere prestigious, like Exeter or Andover, where you might get some networking benefit.
University Degrees
This is the bare minimum you’ll need to actually work at an investment bank, and most other finance firms.
Every week I get comments asking, “I’m 38 and never graduated from college – do you think I can become an investment banking analyst?”
No, you can’t.
Why not?
- Supply and Demand – Banks have so many university graduates who’d give up a kidney to work for them that they can afford to reject 99% of applicants and still have more people than they know what to do with.
- Work Ethic – If you can’t finish a university degree then banks will assume that you cannot finish any project, which is a problem when you have a 100-page pitch book due in 3 hours.
Yes, I know there are good reasons you didn’t get a degree – you dropped out to start your own multi-billion dollar company, you couldn’t afford college, or you became a pop star and you’re still on leave.
That’s lovely, but life is not fair and if you don’t have a degree you’re not getting into investment banking or private equity.
Maybe you could trade for a small prop trading firm if you’re a baller trader without a degree, but even there it’s tough – they care less about pedigree than banks, but everyone else there will have the degree.
It’s approximately 100x more difficult to get into banking coming from a “non-target” school (one where banks don’t recruit) compared to a “target” school (the Ivy League, LSE, Oxbridge, and so on), so go to the best school possible.
What you major in doesn’t matter too much as long as you get decent grades and internships, but you can review your options right here.
Master’s Degrees
There are several good reasons to get a Master’s degree:
- You need the prestige because your undergraduate school was unknown.
- You had poor grades and need to press Ctrl + Z on your transcript.
- You didn’t get an offer and want to try again, with better access to recruiters.
- You’re in Europe and 5-year programs that include both the Bachelor’s and Master’s degree are common.
The most common question on Master’s degrees:
“So, if I go for a Master’s in Finance program I can start as an Associate, right?”
No, you can’t, because:
- You would need at least 3-5 years of previous work experience or 2 years as an IB analyst first.
- Master’s programs are less of a time and money commitment compared to MBA programs.
I must have heard this question 500 times at career fairs and the answer is always the same: “You’ll still be an Analyst.”
MBA
This is the only advanced degree that allows you to “level-up” when you start working.
IF you have had enough experience (usually 3-5 years in a normal industry, or 2 years as a former IB analyst), then you’ll start out one rung above the Analyst: you’ll be an Associate instead.
Which means you get paid a bit more, have more responsibility, and you get to sleep 6 hours per night instead of 4.
But do not assume that just because you get an MBA, banks will automatically interview you or think that you can be an Associate.
There are plenty of ways to screw it up, including going to a non-top-tier school, not having enough work experience, or not showing a clear progression toward being interested in banking.
So make sure you learn how to properly re-brand yourself and how to use MBA programs the right way in the first place.
JD
While Damages the TV series is awesome, most law firms are not even close to that interesting in real life: the Partners at your firm might be sadistic, but they’re still far from Patty Hewes.
So many lawyers get the bright idea that they could go into finance instead and make bank while abusing their former co-workers.
Just one small problem: banks don’t give a crap about law school.
OK, that’s not 100% true and it’s viewed a little more favorably than the MD or PhD – but there’s no added bonus for going to law school and it’s a much more indirect path to banking.
You have to graduate from law school, work in corporate law for a few years without going insane, and then network your way into banking from there.
Having the law background may benefit you in areas like Restructuring and Distressed Investing where there’s legal overlap, but it’s a stretch to say that you should go to law school specifically to get into those fields.
If you’ve already taken the plunge, you can’t exactly abort midway through – so finish, do corporate or securities law, and then network into banking after working for a few years.
You may actually start as an Associate if you do law school and then corporate law before banking, so the JD can be another way to level-up.
PhD
If you thought bankers looked down on lawyers, you’ve never seen their reaction to PhDs – ouch.
Bankers and PE-ers don’t care about the degree because the math in both fields is trivial: arithmetic and a few circular references in Excel.
You might be the next Stephen Hawking, but that doesn’t matter because you don’t need to understand wormholes to be a banker – you just need to understand how to change the font size in pitch books.
Most bankers think that PhDs are too well-educated to go back to fixing printers and scouring through SEC filings, so there’s a significant bias against hiring them.
Sometimes you can still get into finance if you have the degree, but usually you have to:
- Target a boutique that fits your background exactly – like an industrials-focused firm if you have a PhD in materials engineering, or a healthcare-focused firm if you completed an advanced degree in biochemistry.
- Go for equity research instead. They actually care about the degree because they want people who understand an industry in-depth – again, you would focus on groups that match your background.
- Go the quant route (works best with physics/math/related degrees). Sure, trading will never be what it once was, but firms always need quants and smart math people to build their models.
MD
You face a similar problem here: you’re over-educated and banks will assume that you have no interest in spreading comps if you’ve qualified to perform open heart surgery.
They may also assume that you’re unable to commit to anything and stick with it: how could you have made it through years of med school without realizing you wanted to do business earlier?
In this situation you’d have to follow the PhD advice above and go after boutique banks in the healthcare/biotech/pharmaceutical space and/or look into equity research. You don’t have the ideal background to be a quant, so that’s not the best idea here.
You’ll also need a really good story about why you’re making this move – not just “I realized business was so much cooler!”
You need a specific incident or person that made you interested, and a perfect explanation of how you realized that medicine was not for you after years of doing it, but how you’re simultaneously certain that finance is for you with 0 years of experience.
Combo Degrees – JD + MBA?
Combo degrees get another “thumbs down” from me.
We already learned that adding a Master’s degree on top of a normal bachelor’s degree, for example, won’t let you start as an Associate.
But what about that famed JD + MBA combination – surely that must open up more exit opportunities, right?
No, not really. Most jobs are geared toward law or finance, but not both.
It would be most useful in areas like Restructuring, Distressed Investing, or arguably Real Estate / Project Finance where there’s overlap with the law and legal codes.
But even there, it’s a stretch to say that the JD would add much: even the MBA might not be terribly helpful if you’ve had previous, relevant experience.
You may also face a branding problem if you have a law degree and a business degree: business people will think you’re a lawyer, and lawyers will think you’re in business.
There’s always a temptation to think that more = better when it comes to degrees or certifications, but that’s just not true.
You want the minimum investment required for maximal gain – anything more than that reduces your ROI.
What about other combinations like JD + PhD + MBA, or JD + MD + MBA? Please, don’t even waste your time and money – it’s just silly.
Adding more advanced degrees like this will hurt you and make you look like more and more of an academic and less and less like someone who can actually make money in the real world.
Certifications
This part will be shorter because certifications matter far less in banking and PE than degrees.
The main one that generates debate is the CFA and whether or not it’s helpful for breaking in – others are either completely useless or marginally helpful at best.
Series 7 / 63 / 65 / 66 / 79 / 84563X2
If you have a ton of free time, you’ve already networked extensively, and you already have great internships and/or a full-time job lined up, then sure, knock yourself out.
Just be aware that if your bank requires them, you’ll complete the exams during training anyway.
If you really want to set yourself apart before you start working, you’d be better off moving to another country for a few months and doing something interesting there.
CFA
I’m not going to rehash all the arguments for and against the CFA here – go consult this article if you want to go down that path again.
The short version is that it’s not the best use of your time for investment banking or private equity in developed countries, but it may be more useful in emerging markets or in fields like equity research, portfolio management, or some types of hedge funds.
And do not think that it will cover up an unknown school, low grades, or no work experience – it won’t.
Think of it as an added bonus and something to look into if you already have top schools, high grades, and great work experience.
CPA / FRM / Other Certifications with C and F in the Names
Look, if you want to be an accountant or a risk manager or perhaps other things outside of IB/PE, then sure, go ahead and pursue these.
There’s an alphabet soup of other certifications out there, and David from Bionic Turtle does a great job of summarizing them here.
There’s nothing wrong with any of these – it’s just that they will not help you much with IB/PE, because getting in is based almost entirely on practical experience.
In the future, who knows, there may be an exam to get “certified” in investment banking – but for now no one takes anything like that seriously (yes, I’m talking to you, “Certified M&A Advisor”).
There’s another critical reason why such certifications don’t apply to IB and PE: at the top levels these fields are based on sales, relationships, and negotiation skills – skills that can’t be tested on a written exam.
Bloomberg / FactSet / Other
Don’t even bother – you’ll learn everything you need to know (which is not much) when you start working, and you don’t even use the complex features in banking.
These may actually hurt you because you do not want to be known as “The Bloomberg Guy” or “The VBA Guy” or anything else that results in annoying requests to fix other peoples’ broken-beyond-repair spreadsheets.
Standardized Tests: SAT, GMAT, GRE, A-Levels…
These aren’t quite “certifications” but why not throw them in here anyway?
None of these is as important as grades in university, but in the US most banks will still ask for your SAT scores, and GMAT scores can be helpful if you have low SAT scores (under 2100 in the new system). No, don’t bother going back and re-taking them if they’re low: not worth the effort.
As with grades, these tests are more about whether or not you meet the minimum score they’re looking for rather than “standing out” – so please do not re-take the GMAT if you got a 720.
Got Degrees or Certifications?
I hope not – unless you mean a university, Master’s, or MBA degree.
Otherwise, save your time and money and if you’re already too far down a path to turn back now, cut your losses and change direction as soon as you can.
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Hi Brian,
thanks for the content of this website, as usual.
I am applying to week programmes at some major banks in the UK. I studied in Italy before, and discovered that if I calculate the correspondent GPA in the UK Grading system (0-100) I would get a much nicer figure than the Italian Grading system (0-30). Do you think it would be a good idea to write my Italian GPA in English Grading? Or possibly, to include both the original and the correspondent UK (70% + 20/30, bearing in mind that pass grade in Italy is 18/30 or 60%), whereas in the UK is 40%?
I have seen some banks preventing you from doing this on their application form, do you agree with them? I suppose being able to present/manipulate data in different (nicer) ways is something that can be usefully applied while working in IB.
Cheers
sorry about that just found the answer on the website.
cheers
If you can write your Italian GPA in English grading, then do so. I can see why the banks are preventing you from doing so to standardize the process and to make it fair. However, I do also know that different education systems have different grading systems and this put some candidates at a huge advantage while others at a big disadvantage. I wouldn’t agree or disagree but if I were you I would focus my efforts on getting in
Thank you so much for your articles, they have really helped me get a better understanding about the investment banking world.
I have a background that has nothing to do with finance- I am about to finish my BS in Chinese next month with a 3.9, served in the US Air Force as a ‘Cryptologic Linguist’ working in Intel at NSA (National Security Agency) … I’ve also studied abroad in Beijing and did a summer marketing internship in London. Which, if any, of these can I play up to help get me into IB? If none, what next step would you recommend me to take?
I have a really good contact in IB who is willing to introduce me to some great contacts but I want to make sure I am as prepared as possible beforehand…
Thanks again, I really appreciate your insight!
Network in China, know bankers, know their clients (issuers, corporations), and try to land yourself an internship in finance
Hi, just wanted to know how did this work. Did you manage to get into IB? I am also trying to do it in China, and I’m very interested in your story, maybe we can have a chat!
Hello I’m a Freshman at a non-target school and I just had a question about courses.
You frequently write on here that the math that you perform in investment banking is extremely basic (addition, subtraction ,etc). I’m finished with two semesters of calculus so I planned on not taking anymore math courses. However, I met with a Finance professor today and he told me that it’s extremely important that I go as high in math as I possibly can (i.e. vector/differential equations).
What are your thoughts on this matter/what math experience did you go into investment banking with? Is this only applicable if I was trying to get a PhD in Finance but less important if I’m interested in IB/PE?
You need to know Accounting (how to analyze financial statements) in IBD, not differential equations. You’d need that in derivatives though
Yes, not for IB/PE
Hi Brian & Nicole,
Great site. Good to see a level of maturity in the articles compared to other sites (we all know which ones).
I have a related question, but first some background. I have excellent work experience (deals and solid relationships), but poor academics and I’m wondering about my level when I go back to school.
I managed to start my career in real estate private equity despite not having completed my degree (dropped out of final year due to family issues). Its been 7+ years now, during which I’ve invested over $2 bn (good returns) and have sourced deals in several different countries, including setting up the international division for my employer and a stint at a mid-sized SWF.
Our firm is winding down its business (partners splitting up). My ex-colleagues are mostly at BBs & SWFs (investing roles). I’m applying to top 5 MBA programmes in the USA (Ivy League) and as a 2nd choice given my age Msc’s (Finance/Real Estate) at LSE/Oxbridge. I would be 33/34 by the time I graduate.
In the event that I’m not able to network into a VP/Director role at a REPE or related distressed hedge fund, would I be too experienced/old for non-real estate “senior” associate investment banking roles in the UK &/or Emerging Markets?
Long term, I need a Masters/MBA as a hedge against my poor academics and especially if I’m going to try to raise a fund or finance my own venture in the future.
Best, Opportunist
I wouldn’t say that you would be too experienced for a senior associate role then. However, I believe you would be a bit too old/experienced for a junior associate role, and this is a role which most MBA students start off as.
While I may be wrong, I don’t necessarily believe that you need a Masters/MBA to hedge ag/ your poor academics if you are really good at what you do (and are sticking to what you’re good at) and have solid work experience (w deals and relationships)
Thanks for the reply Nicole.
I somewhat agree that I don’t necessarily “need” the masters, but for someone who isn’t from the US/Europe it can make more of a difference at my level (i.e. non-partner/equity owner).
Sure. I’m sure there are pros and cons to getting a masters. Let us know what you decide!
Hi,
I wanted to ask you…what do you think about getting in an MBA program at a top business school in Europe to work in Finance after 4-5 years of work experience in the gambling sector ?
Do you still recommend to start from a Masters in Finance?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
hey i’m a first timer and yr page really helped me. thank you for that. I’ve just finished high school and i’m really interested in the field of Investment Banking. However, i’m in a lost and have no idea which course or degree i should venture into now. Please advise? Thanks
Focus on getting into a top university first. You can’t do anything without an undergraduate degree.
Hey Brian and Nicole,
Before I ask my question, I have to mention that I love the blunt honesty from the articles and how it gets right to the point. Anyways, I graduated from an AACSB accredited university in May of 2011, however, it is not a target school. I have also participated in Investment Banking Institute’s month long program for supplemental coursework/training. Currently I am working in Wilmington, Delaware for Morgan Stanley doing operational work (trade support). What can I do to enter the world of Investment Banking? I have good connections and know the inner world of IB but I can’t seem to find any opportunities given the tight job market. Should I try for an internship or get some work experience at MS and then go for an MBA and try again in a couple of years?
What are my options? Which option can get me into IB the quickest?
Thank you for all your help,
J
I’d suggest you to apply for front office roles in all banks from mid tier to top tier ones and network as much as you can.
I’d also suggest you to apply for an MBA
Hi there after completing my degree in June 2011 in Economics from a top 15 UK university. I decided to do a CFA level 1 which i took in december. I failed the exam. Is this worth mentioning this on your CV, or in an interview that you atleast took the exam? Or EVER for that matter? Or do you just ignore it completely in which case,how do you cover the 6 month gap after graduating and not look like time has been wasted all for nothing.
Hey Brian,
Thanks for all the helpful info updated oin the website.
Well, I wanted to know your views on the right area of IB to get into. I have completed BBM(Bachelors in Business Mgt) and Mass Communication in India and have worked for Deutsche Bank for 2 Yrs in an Ops role- Eq & Derivatives(Chasing for Confirmations and Trade execution on Paper, DTCC & Swift). I also hold certifications in Manual /Automation Testing with SQL and have Testing exp (8months)in HP on an Accounting application.
I will be moving to the UK next month and wanted to know the opportunities available in there. Also, which area in IB would best suit my credentials(Testing in IB or IB ops or?) and what further certifications u would suggest? Thanks
Hard to say because it depends on what your skills and your interests are, esp given limited space on this comments section. IB ops might be easier for you to break in given your background. I wouldn’t suggest further certifications unless you want to move to the buy-side/front office though if you network hard enough and can pitch yourself the latter is possible to achieve.
Hey Brian and Nicole
Hi there after completing my degree in June 2011 in Economics from a top 15 UK university. I decided to do a CFA level 1 which i took in december. I failed the exam. Is this worth mentioning this on your CV, or in an interview that you atleast took the exam? Or EVER for that matter? Or do you just ignore it completely in which case,how do you cover the 6 month gap after graduating and not look like time has been wasted all for nothing.
CFA – are you retaking it? If so, list it
6 month gap – Did you do anything fun & productive during those 6 months i.e. learning a new language, traveling, etc? Spin your 6 months in a positive light!
how good is the CQF – cert in Quantitive finance
Somewhat helps but I don’t think it matters that much
Brian,
Whats your opinion on cooperative education system in USA?? Especially about pursuing Bachelor of finance, through cooperative education program???
We don’t offer opinions on education systems! Sorry!
Hi, i do not want to ask a question about the CFA even though i have one, in case you have previously answered this question else where, which is why to save your time, could you please direct me to where you have answered questions that people who did not pass their CFA’s first time round have. Kind Regards. i.e not passing their CFA and leaving a gap on their resume, i cannot find the answers, i would appreciate it if you can direct me to where the cFA questions are.
We don’t have a link on that. I’d suggest you to retake the exam and put the date when you are retaking the exam down.
what about this: Level 2 Award and Certificate in Team Leading
not just for getting a job but also for getting a degree in the UK?
Readers may be able to offer you better insights
I really like your snarky writing style -it’s funny as Hell! My son graduated in 3 years with a 3.8 and is going into an MBA program this Fall. I have suggested that he go off for part of his MBA degree to Singapore for experience because his university has a business school there too. Is there any other country you could suggest that is good for banking experience -Switzerland, the Cayman Islands –or do you think the Singapore route is a good one????
Depends on the brand name of the school. I’d personally still go for top tier US schools. Abroad, I’d look at schools in the Europe
Hi M&I
At First,i want to say it’s really a great website,it gave me many information about investment banking
Currently i’m 22 years old,Im doing assurance services in 1 of big 4 in asia
I’m planning to do the work for arround 2-3 years,and after that i will apply to MBA program at top 30 uni in US
what do you think about my resume for a MBA degree and 2 years+ experience in big 4,do that help me breakthrough to investment banking career?
If i don’t have a MBA but i have 3-5 years experience in big 4,does it will be same with have a MBA+2Years in big 4 exp?
Thank you
Having an MBA from a target school will help you, unless you can leverage your own network and experience and break into IB after 2-3 years. Tougher but people still do it
Another scenario type question…
I realized I wanted to get into IBanking while working at JPM in operations. Went back to school (UConn which is top 40 but non-target) got strong grades 3.97/4.00 to add to 3 years operations at JPM. No IB internship so I did a wealth management internship at Merrill and stayed part time during my second year of MBA. No luck during application process for associate position.
I have decent GMAT score at 670 and could potentially get into a 1-year Master of Accounting Program at top schools like Michigan, UNC, or Notre Dame. Would this be a good idea just for the access to IB recruiters and the top school brand, or does it fall into a too many degree scenario?
(Note: I was public relations undergrad so the accounting experience would not be repetitive)
Thanks in advance,
Jay T
I don’t think it’d fall into a too many degree scenario. I think a top MBA can help you in your case, though I’d probably boost your GMAT score a bit and target Wharton, Stern, Columbia if finance is what you’re aiming for. UMich, UNC, ND are great schools though I think the schools I mentioned might be of an even higher caliber (for finance-related roles)
Hi M&I
Firstly, thanks for such a great article.
I would like to ask for some advice regarding moving from medicine to business. I’m currently studying an undergraduate degree in medicine (different system here from the US). I have currently completed 4 out of the 6 years required to get an MD. Straight out of high school, I was very strong at maths and had more interest in the finance industry but was pressured by my parents to do medicine. Now that I have experienced clinical medicine, I am confident that I will not enter clinical practice. With that in mind, if I would like to venture into IB/PE, do you think I would be better off finishing off the remainder of my degree and getting an MD, followed by an MBA down the track, or dropping out of medicine now and pursuing a commerce degree majoring in finance and quantitative analysis? Thanks in advance.
Tough one. What does your gut tell you to do? Dropping out of medicine is a pretty big decision.
If you want to venture into IB/PE, you can still do so w a medicine degree though you’d have to demonstrate your knowledge and passion in finance. You can do an MBA after your degree though it will just take longer to break into the industry.
Are these article material and comments all timeless? Time is a very important factor. Why nothing has a time stamp? About when are you making your points? 2002 or 2012, huge different world!!!
If time is a factor, the date is listed. For example, see the salary estimates here: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/on-the-job/
Most of what we cover here does not change over time, or changes marginally at best. Degrees and certifications have never mattered much in investment banking, whether it was 1992, 2002, or 2012, and I’m guessing that in 2052 they also won’t matter much.
Hi ,
I am a 29 years old with offers from City university and westminister university to study economics / investment this year!
When i got pregnant at 22 years my deram to have a career in banking/ investment was put on hold. My children are now at school and have worked for 6 years as a recruitment consultant while looking after them!
Do you think compleating a dergee will help me break in ? If not , what other ways would youo sugest ?
Many thanks in advance
mary
I’d look at roles in commercial/retail banking. I may be wrong, but I believe it may be more challenging for you to break into IB/PWM/AM
I’d also consider taking the CFA if you’re serious about finance.
Thanks Nicole,
Does this mean that going ahead with teh deegree is not going to really help to get within any financil industry ??
many thansk
mary
The degree will help, and its definitely a prerequisite to most jobs in finance these days if you don’t already have a bachelors degree. But its only a prerequisite, you need to have more than that on your credentials…i.e. work experience, knowledge/passion of the markets, etc
Hey, sorry of i am asking a dumb question, but after reading this page fully, i have a doubt as to what do you mean by “network yourself”? Pls your article helped me a lot in understanding somw key things, but couldnt conclude the meaning of “network yourself”?
Not a dumb question though we didn’t state “network yourself” in the article. I don’t quite understand your question.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/network-investment-banking-5-simple-steps/ may help
I have recently graduted from Exeter and have been accepted into many top colleges. I am planning to attend Harvard, double-majoring in the classics and and minoring in history. I was thinking to get a JD/MBA (I would apply to the 2 + 2 program, which was made for Liberal rt majors), and become a corporate lawyer. If I do this, could I eventually break into investment banking (I am not sure if I want to do that instead of staying as a lawyer). I was then planning to quit, get a PhD n Philosophy, Politis, and Economics at Oxford and et a higher postion (eitheir as a lawyer or IB) at a different company. However, this article sugess that the plan is not ver good. What would be a better one.
PS My friend graduated froma top 1% public high school; should he mention that in his resume?
You can break into banking as an undergrad through Harvard as long as you know how to pitch your story, have solid internship and finance experience and can demonstrate your genuine interest in finance
If he’s a freshman, sure. Otherwise, HS info is relatively dated. You’d want to list your finance related work/club experience, if you have any, instead
Thanks for the quick reply.
I’m afraid I do not quite understand; how can I break into banking while I am still in udergrad? The article states I would need at least a degree; I have not finished my degree if I am still an undergrad. Do you mean I should get the “solid internship and finance experience” as a undergad? Also, should I get the JD/MBA, or just the JD; I plan to become a corporate lawyer and then decide if I want to break into finance or stay a lawyer. If I get just the JD, is getting the PhD in economics a bad idea?
“If he’s a freshman, sure. Otherwise, HS info is relatively dated. You’d want to list your finance related work/club experience, if you have any, instead” Do you mean a freshman in college applying for an internship?? I meant when he graduates from college and is trying to find a job.
When I posted my comment, it came up as “Theodore Frankbaum”; the reason for that is because after I typed the comment and before I clicked submit, I went on a the “How to Break Into Investment Banking as a Lawyer” article, and accidentally copied and pasted the name of a commenter
(Theodore Frankbaum) onto the “Name” section of the comment; I had earlier copied “Recent Graduate”, so I thought I was pasting that. I saw the name when the comment was already submitted.
Yes you can get solid internship experience before you obtain your degree as an undergrad. People usually do so in the sophomore/junior years/summers
Whether you want to do the law degree or not depends on your passion/interest
If he has graduated from college, HS experience can be dated.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/5-ways-to-make-your-resume-sink-faster-than-the-titanic/
Thanks.
I have just graduated from college I am planning to take a JD/MBA and join a law firm called Goodwin Procter, as they have launched a JD/MBA initiaive to attract those who with the degree to the point where they even give a $20K signing bonus to incoming first-year associates who hold JD/MBA degrees. After doing business law there for a few years, I wish to break into PE or IB, and then maybe into a hedge fund. Is that a good idea?
The law school I am applying to has a “PhD in law” program for those who have finished their JD. Is it a bad idea to get that?http://www.law.yale.edu/news/15782.htm
Whether it is a good idea or not – Do you have passion in the fields? Do you have the skills to succeed in the fields?
I can’t answer the question for you – whether you should do the PhD in law or not – it really depends on your situation, finances, skills etc. Will the degree guarantee you a job in PE/IB etc? No. Will it help? Maybe.
Hi, great article and this website has been my bible for the past 3 years at university. I have spent a lot of time reading and I think finally I can say that I would want to settle for a career in IB. However, passion only gets you so far in life. I have just completed my degree from a UK university. I am a Malaysian and currently looking to break into IB here. I was just curious how far can contacts and networking go as far as securing me a place? I am academically weak having got a 3rd in Information Systems.Bsc. However, I have done internships at UBS and HSBC previously due to contacts. Now, I am obviously worried that due to low grades, networking may not be sufficient to get me a slot.
Thank you.
Kind regards,
jason
Continue networking and sell your story. Use networking and a strong sales pitch to compensate for your low grades. Not easy but not impossible either.
Thank you for the reply Nicole. I am currently in the midst of deciding on the best path to take if I am not able to break straight into IB now. Is retail and consumer banking out of the question? I know its even tougher to break from a back office in IB. What would be the best way in terms of gaining solid experience to break into IB, disregarding my academic performance.
I have applied to smaller fund management firms at the moment and wouldnt mind gaining hands-on experience there as opposed to retail banking at a more prestigous bank. What would you suggest.
Regards,
Jason
Honestly, retail/consumer banking, back office and AM roles are not really the typical “stepping stones” to IB. I’m sure people have broken in through these roles, but cases like this aren’t common. I’d probably take an internship with a small/boutique IB.
Below articles, while not directly relevant, may shed light on your case:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/break-into-investment-banking-3-0-gpa-unknown-school/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-from-state-school-no-finance-background/
Hi, I’m wondering whether firms in the UK value a BA degree in economics anywhere near as highly as they would a BSc. Unfortunately I’m not able to apply for a BSc Economics degree at any top University because I do not take maths as one of my A Levels.
I’m wondering what I should do at this point. Should I should apply for the BA course if I want to go into IB or would it be better for me to take a gap year, take A-level maths during my year off and then reapply for BSc Economics?
Or is the difference between the two degrees minimal and so unlikely to disadvantage me too much?
Thanks.
I don’t think the difference b/ the two are that significant though readers may have other insights. I’d try your best to go to a target school if you can.
Hi,
I have total experience of more than 6 years in testing of Core banking and Investment Banking including both manual and automation testing. Currtently i am working in a Global Investment Bank as Test Analyst. Please suggest how i can scale my career from here. Shall i go for some certifications or sthg else..Please advice.
Yes if you can get into a top tier MBA program that’s going to help you
Hi!
I am a final (third) year student of BA (economics) from the 12th ranked College in India.
How do you suggest I break into the banking world and be an investment banker?
PS- We have prestigious universities providing MBA to freshers in India, do you think that’s the best way to start for me as I have no substantial work experience yet, none in banking at least. Would certifications help the likes of me?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/break-into-investment-banking-3-0-gpa-unknown-school/
Not directly relevant.
Otherwise, an MBA from a target school might help you
Brian and Nicole thanks for this site. IB industry was fascinating in college, I was younger. Today I am 32/33 and the PE industry seems more relevant after working with them I think it is a better fit for a corporate account career changer with no CPA, MBA, or banking exp. Growing up I went to boarding school, graduate 8 yrs ago from a satellite campus of a public university, not a target school, with a 3.1 GPA. In college I founded a family office for my family. Parted from that to work as cost accountant for manufacturing co. at the time they were recently acquired by a PE firm. Thought i was path into IB or PE.
During my tenure I was assigned increasing responsibilities, worked with senior mgmt and eventually promoted to Plant Controller. Along the path divested product lines preformed due diligence in acquisitions, and gathered documents and prep fin stmts for 2 years before taking the co. public in 2011. Left the company in March 2012 to find another path into Private Equity.
After talking to people in private equity their advice varies from go work for a bank to get a MBA or JD. Shake the corporate accountant/plant controller label. I pursued IB for two years after college too low GPA. Got one interview, didn’t have the valuation skills. I have the operations and financial experience to increase the value of companies and turnaround distressed companies. It wouldn’t hurt for me to get specific modeling skills and develop a good story. 1) Will my GPA or exp hinder me? 2) Would working for a bank help? 3)Investment Banking Institute worth it? 4)Does experience in business operations help or hinder?
Sorry for the length
Thanks again Brian and Nicole
1. Not quite sure how important your GPA is now given the amount of work experience you have. Re your experience, yes having experience in PE/IB will help you
2. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/private-equity-recruiting/
3. Yes you may learn some relevant skills but probably won’t get your foot in the door
4. No – you just have to look for roles in PE that suit your experience – pls refer to link above
hello,
article is very nice and very helpful , i am currently pursuing my mba in India (non-IIM). i don have work experience . i want to work here 3 years and go to US as my fiance is in US . I want to work in a finance domain – not IB / PE . should i give a try for CFA ?
TIA
Perhaps a CFA might help you in your case since it gives you an overview of finance
My GMAT score is below 650, I graduated from a lower tier Ivy with a GPA below a 3.5, and I have just been accepted into an MBA program that usually ranks between 11th and 15th on the US News & World Report. Upon enrollment, I would have 4 years of work experience – 3 years at a Fortune 500 in a finance rotational program and 1 year as Senior Financial Analyst doing FP&A (Financial Planning & Analysis) at another Fortune 500.
I am interested in getting a summer associate investment banking internship after my first year at business school.
My question for you is, how big of a factor will my undergrad gpa and low GMAT score be when I apply for a summer associate gig? Do you advice that I retake the gmat? What can I do before enrolling in business to make my branding align with what an investment bank would be looking for? I was thinking of taking the Investment Banking Institute financial modelling course. Do you think that putting that on my resume looks tacky?
Please let me know what you think. Thank you so much for the courtesy that you have always extended to me.
Warm regards,
Dan
No, I wouldn’t advise you to retake the GMAT because you’ve already got in a good MBA program. I’d suggest you to intern while you can at school and join an IB/finance club the program if you can. I don’t think your GMAT scores matter too much though some firms do look at them. In terms of low undergrad GPA, yes it may affect you slightly though what would really help you is having IB experience (internship/work) on your resume. Having the IB course might help slightly. I think networking with the right people and knowing how to pitch your story will be your best bet.
Thanks!
I was wondering if an IB diploma would be any good when getting into banking.
I don’t think it is particularly useful. Gaining relevant experience in finance will be more useful.
Hi,
I have a couple of questions: Sorry, but I fail to understand why someone who graduated from a non-target university with excellent grades in finance (e.g. GPA: 4.00/4.00) is still not eligible for a job in the industry in question…
(yes, there are still some people, who cannot afford going to a top school). I don’t see why someone, who graduated with a history or literature degree from some prestigious university is expected to perform better in this role (after all, he/she spent his/her time studying something completely irrelevant – here you are commenting on those taking the “unnecessary” time to study for certifications, like the CFA). And my last question would be, does this sort of “discriminatory attitude” pay off for IB’s in the end? Is there evidence that the quality and productivity of workforce have improved? Like you mentioned, it is not rocket science we are talking about – but pursuing excellence in whatever you do, is the same wherever you are and at least it shows that you are able of committing yourself to some goal, achieving certain things in the process…
Because the industry usually recruits their incoming class from target schools. If you don’t go to a target school, your chances of breaking in are slimmer because you may not always be offered the opportunity to interview. After all, interviewers do care about pedigree. Of course, you can still break into the industry coming from a non-target (and you are eligible), but you’ll most likely have to work harder to network and gain the opportunity to break in.
In some ways, yes, because interviewers generally have a sense what it takes for a candidate to succeed in IB. By filtering your candidates, you ensure quality, though this does not guarantee that there’ll be an improvement in productivity.
Hi Nicole,
Firstly I would like to thank you for writing this article. I’ve graduate from a non-target school ( in top 40 in the UK) in Law with Business with a 2:1 in 2011. And I was working as an international sales manager for a textile company. And I’m now thinking to lend a job either in IB or PE. Would you recommend me to do CFA/ACCA or MBA. Or something else ?
Regards
Hi Nicole,
Firstly I would like to thank you for writing this article. I’ve graduate from a non-target school ( in top 40 in the UK) in Law with Business with a 2:1 in 2011. And I was working as an international sales manager for a textile company. And I’m now thinking to lend a job either in IB or PE. Would you recommend me to do CFA/ACCA or MBA. Or something else?Regards
Hi admin,
I am an Econ PHD student entering into my second year at one of the US universities. Previously I graduated from one of the Big-Ten( think of Michigan, WM). I have done an IB- internship in a boutique during the summer before I graduate. The reason I went for PHD at that time is because I craved for knowledge much more than anything else. But right now something comes up, and I need to find myself in a money-earner position asap. I am thinking of dropping out and go into IB. I am not sure what are my odds now of getting into investment banking? I would like to consult your view on this. Appreciate.
Loved the article. I’m interested in your opinion about my situation. I’m 21 and do to circumstances am just enrolling in college on a some what limited budget. I have no lack in motivation and drive to be successful in IB/PE. Due to my hiatus from school (after high school) am I at a disadvantage?
No, though you’ll be competing against people from target schools who’ve had a few years of experience in IB/PE.
You may find the below links useful:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-from-state-school-no-finance-background/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/finance-low-gpa-no-experience-non-target-school/
I graduated with a BS Accounting from a mid-tier, business school in 2012 and I am currently in a corporate development program at a “megabank”. My initial placement is in the Consumer Bank space (Card, Retail, Mortgage) doing corporate audit. I have completed the CPA exam and have been looking into MSFin/MBA programs to potentially shift into IB after my 2 year program. Would it be wise to network within and attempt to support the IB/AM teams as an auditor to get exposure or go MS Finance/MBA. GMAT score 690 and ungergrad gpa 3.6
I think it is always wise to network and support the IB/AM teams if this is the direction you want to move into. And I also think you may want to apply for MSF/MBA as a backup just in case you receive “less than ideal” responses from your networking efforts. An MBA/MSF can help you retool yourself. For AM roles, a CFA is probably more valued than a CPA, though they may not be useful for IB roles.
Hi Brian,
I really would love to get into Asset Management or some kind of finance research (I hate IB). I haven’t got any offer whatsoever and I feel quite confident in getting a role at Bloomberg. I know I don’t want to be the “bloomberg guy” but then again, beggars can’t be choosers.
Bloomberg has recently been expanding a lot. It now has a wealth management and brokerage service. Given the lack of opportunities by working at a data provider, my strategy is to leverage my entry-level sales position into a either one of those divisions through internal networking. I have financial modelling skills anyway. What do you reckon? Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. Thank you.
Bloomberg is a good company. You may be able to gain a network of asset managers through bloomberg since many of them are interviewed there, or use products by the company. It provides you a great avenue to network.