While others could potentially work… if you spin them the right way.

Meanwhile, read even more about networking, living the dream, and my own secret plans for world domination below.

The Banker Formerly Known As Tiger Woods: How Much Can You Spin?

This one is going to work just like a reality TV show: each suggestion or idea gets a thumbs up or thumbs down with notes on what you should actually do (ok I guess they don’t do that last part on TV).

1. I’ve been a pro golfer for the past few years (since I graduated). Do you think I could spin this into having good “client relationship” skills and get into investment banking directly?

I’d bet no on this one, especially if you’ve been doing it for years. It’s just too different from sitting in a cubicle editing spreadsheets – you’d need to go to business school to make this type of move, and then get some kind of finance experience before you go.

2. I’ve had S&T internships but now I want to move into investment banking. Do you think I can spin my experience to make this happen?

Yes. Emphasize any long-term fundamental trading you’ve done, independent study on financial modeling / financial statements, relevant projects, and any time you’ve worked with clients in the past. If you have solid contacts in banking groups, this type of move is do-able.

3. By the time I start full-time recruiting, I’ll have had 3 separate investment banking internships over summers and the school year, and experience working on at least 5 deals. Do you think I could spin this into applying for Associate positions at private equity firms and hedge funds?

I like your thinking, but no. All these places are very structured in their recruiting, and they won’t take you as an Associate without full-time work experience. You could go for Analyst positions, though…

4. If I have no finance experience, can I still get internships? How can I use your resume template if I don’t have any “work experience?”

Yes, you can. If you don’t have “real” experience, then you should spin finance-related clubs/activities, as well as any seminars or case competitions you’ve been in as “work & leadership experience.” Even if something only lasted a few days you could still write more about that than real work.

5. I’m going to a community college right now – can I still make this look good and get investment banking internships?

Difficult – I’ve never heard of anyone going from a community college to a banking internship. Your best bet is to transfer to a 4-year school instead. Doesn’t have to be Harvard, but it should be somewhere where at least a few people go into finance.

6. Is it ok to omit jobs from my resume if they won’t help with recruiting at all? Or is that lying?

Depends on what you’re omitting, but usually it’s fine as long as you’re not leaving out major internships / full-time experience. Part-time jobs, activities, etc. can all be omitted. If it won’t help you with recruiting, leave it out unless you’ve got nothing else to write about.

7. I was working in PE, but got laid off, and now I’m applying to both private equity and investment banking jobs. How can I convince investment bankers that I’m actually serious about banking?

This one’s a tough sell. No matter what you say, no banker will believe you 100% – you can list all the usual reasons (wanting to close more deals, more exposure) and then point out that it would be easier for you to go back into PE, so if you weren’t serious why would you be applying to IB?

8. I’m at a Top 5 school doing a graduate program there right now, but I’ve realized I don’t want to be in academia, so I’m thinking of dropping out and pursuing investment banking jobs full-time. How can I spin this in a positive light?

I think you’re getting ahead of yourself there. Why drop out right now if you’re attending a top school? Use the name to contact alumni and banks and get interviews, then think about dropping out if something works out.

How to Deal with Unhelpful People When Networking

Sometimes you reach someone who just doesn’t care and won’t help you. Most of the time, you should cut your losses and move on rather than wasting hours on 1 person.

9. What do you do when you reach an unhelpful HR person who won’t put you through to real bankers when you’re cold-calling?

If he/she keeps saying “no” no matter what you try and will not put you in touch with any decision-makers, try again the next day/next week and try to speak with someone different. Getting the right person makes more of a difference than what you say.

10. Let’s say I went to an information session but didn’t have time to talk to everyone there. However, I have a list and contact information for all the bankers who I attended – can I follow-up with them, even if I didn’t speak to them there?

You could do this but it’s hard to have a solid “reason why” if you didn’t speak to them at all. Maybe do some research first and find something specific about their background you want to ask about, say you got their information from the session, and follow-up like that.

11. You write a lot about networking, but is it helpful at all for PE? It seems like the private equity recruiting process is dominated by headhunters, so how much can networking really do?

It’s still helpful for PE, but it doesn’t work as well as at it does at banks because PE firms are tiny by comparison. You have to be a lot more targeted and only go for specific industries / geographies / investment sizes or you’ll spend a lot of time chasing leads that never pan out.

12. You’ve said that the phone and meeting in-person are always better than email, but isn’t it weird to immediately call someone I met at an information session?

You should probably still email first unless he/she specifically said to call. It’s not necessarily weird if you spoke for a long time and got to know the person really well, but otherwise email to remind them who you are first.

Living the Dream

No, not banking. The real dream.

13. You say that we should travel to a new country and spend a few months there doing something interesting, but that’s easier said than done. How do I find anything to do if I’m by myself? I can’t imagine what I would do alone in a different country.

You need to make friends and establish a social circle ASAP. Four concrete methods I’ve used before:

1. Go on Facebook and look for events/parties/clubs in that region, then show up at events and meet other people there.
2. Look on Meetup.com for groups you might be interested in, and meet people there.
3. Ask your hotel staff for recommendations based on what you want to do/learn.
4. Just talk to random people. In the US people are scared of strangers, but meeting people randomly is more common in other parts of the world.

Similar to networking, this is scary at first but after awhile it becomes paint-by-numbers.

14. If I follow your plan and learn a language somewhere else for a few months, could I leverage this in interviews or for recruiting purposes?

Unless you’re better than the average native speaker, you can’t use a language for business purposes. You can get pretty good conversationally in only a few months, but you won’t be able to understand a lecture on quantum superposition or the ramifications of a multi-lateral nuclear arms disarmament treaty and learn 100,000 words in 3 months.

Anything you learn is a nice bullet point to have and is good to talk about in interviews, but you won’t be able to work in another office unless you’re at a very high level.

15. Could I use experience living abroad to prove that I have “good communication skills” in interviews? Can I use that as something that stands out about me vs. everyone else?

This could be part of your pitch, but you need to back it up with specific examples. Just saying, “Of course I have good communication skills, I’ve lived in 10 countries before!” doesn’t resonate too much.

16. Can you create another site on how you can travel around the world while actually making money, like you do? I’m bored of finance and want to do this instead.

I’ve thought about it, but not right now – too busy with this site and related projects. Maybe next year.

Top-Secret Business Questions & Answers

For some reason lately I’ve received more questions than usual on “the business” of this site. So here we go.

17. You mentioned something new that would be coming soon. Are you starting a forum?

No. I only do something if existing solutions are poor / non-existent and if it will actually help you. There’s no way that I could improve upon WallStreetOasis, so there’s no point.

So far no one has successfully guessed this new addition (which will be coming next year now).

18. Why did you shift away from resumes and interviews and focus more on modeling and networking this year?

Three reasons:

1. There was approximately 503,676% more demand for those topics vs. resume editing / interview practice.
2. 90% of what I did for resume edits is encapsulated with a simple template right here. Remember that 80/20 rule?
3. It’s almost impossible to “teach” someone how to interview well because so much of it comes down to non-verbal communication.

19. You’ve already written so much here, what do you plan to do in the future? It seems like most topics have been covered.

Good point. In the future it will switch to mostly case studies and interviews with readers – there’s only so much you can write about the basics of resumes, networking, and interviewing.

If you want to work in distressed investing, do you need to start at a bank’s Restructuring group first?

What if you’re a serial entrepreneur?

Oh, and what if you were a male escort in a former life?

Today we’re going to take a look at Experienced Transitions and how you might get into finance / investment banking if you’re NOT an undergraduate, MBA student, or recent graduate.

Help Me, M&I, You’re My Only Hope

1. I’m 50 years old, but recently got interested in investment banking. Can I get in?

You can, but not at the Analyst/Associate level – you would need to be in a related field like law or PE and use your senior-level relationships to get in at the senior level. I know of Partner-level lawyers who have done this.

I’m sure someone will try to find a counter-example, so go ahead: I challenge you to find a single example of a 50-year old being hired as an Analyst or Associate.

2. Most of your advice is targeted at recent grads. What would you say if I’m in my mid-30s, have an MBA, and have started several companies before?

I would say, “It’s tough.” Ordinarily I would say, “Go to business school,” but you’ve already done that – so your best bet is to pitch yourself as having a lot of relationships in a particular industry, and get hired at a more senior level.

It’s hard to get into the industry at the mid-level because banks like either 1) Young people who are more “malleable” or 2) Very senior people with a wealth of relationships.

3. I graduated two years ago and decided to move overseas and work for the finance department of a large company. I opened up dozens of new branches and got great experience, but now I want to get back into investment banking – can I do it?

You can, but I would not even bother with bulge brackets unless you have some type of killer connection. Go for boutiques or any firm/group that specializes in the industry you were in.

It’s too early for business school for you, so if you’re really serious I would start networking and see what kind of response you get.

4. I worked in private equity for 3 years out of undergraduate, and then got my MBA. I’m back to my old PE firm now, but I want to move into investment banking. Yes, you read that correctly: I know it’s the opposite of what most people do. What should I do?

If you’re already done with your MBA, you can’t really take advantage of on-campus recruiting so you’ll have to network a lot – which shouldn’t be that hard, considering you work in private equity and must know a lot of bankers.

Their key question will be “WHY?!!!” so you better have a really, really, really, super-good “reason why” or you won’t make it very far.

5. I’m a recently-laid-off attorney who worked on a lot of Restructuring deals – I want to move into Distressed Investing, but do I need to go to a bank first? I want to avoid that if possible.

Not necessarily. The main question will be “Can you count?” so you need to do something to demonstrate that you know basic valuation and modeling – whether that’s independent study, training programs, or taking classes.

At your level, you could also consider contacting headhunters directly because you have some very relevant experience.

6. I originally wanted to do biomedical research in university – but then I decided to do business at the last-minute and have worked at a finance research firm for the past year. How can I convince banks that I know enough about finance to do the job?

See above: independent study, classes, financial modeling training programs. Keep in mind that a big part of any interview is confidence. Even if you don’t know exactly what you’re talking about, if you can say it confidently sometimes they won’t notice.

I would also suggest going after healthcare-focused boutiques, healthcare/medical research-focused equity research groups, etc. to take advantage of your background.

7. I have 5 years of experience as a stock broker and did my undergraduate degree in Computer Science – what’s my best option for working at a bulge bracket bank?

Ah, finally an easy one: a top business school.

8. I used to own my own business, and then I went to Tokyo and “worked” at a club where I had to pick up Japanese girls on the street and talk them into visiting my club and buying $5000 bottles of Cognac to drink with me.

I made a lot of money but got tired of being a “male escort,” so I moved back to the US and am finishing up my undergraduate degree now. Am I “interesting” enough to get interviews?

Dude, I would hire you on the spot just for having been a male escort in Tokyo. You sound way cooler than AJ.

You will definitely catch bankers’ attention with that kind of “story” – but keep in mind that you also need to have a good reason for going into finance, and you need to show them that you know something about the industry.

And, of course, if you’re not a top school you will need to make an intense networking effort to have a good shot of getting interviews.

Netiquette

That’s Networking + Etiquette, not Internet Etiquette…

9. Should I attach my resume when I’m cold-emailing boutiques with my “pitch?”

Yes. If you’re cold-emailing to ask explicitly about jobs, don’t beat around the bush: show them why you’re good, and then follow-up until you hear back.

10. What are the rules for following up after you’ve met bankers at information sessions?

This is a broad question but the most important points are:

1. Always have a “reason why” – a request, suggestion to meet, a question, etc. Don’t just say, “Hi, how are you?”
2. You don’t need to follow-up based on some arbitrary timeline, but try to stay in touch at least once every 2-3 months.
3. Don’t be afraid to ask about recruiting/interviews, especially if it’s close to recruiting season – if you’ve made a good impression they will help you.

11. You’ve written before about cold-calling boutique and merchant banks, but where can I find a list of firms by region?

I’m not one to drop blatant hints about upcoming additions and new products, but you should watch this site very closely over the next month.

12. You mentioned before we should contact recruiters at banks directly if we have exploding offers – but what’s the best way to get their contact information?

The best way is to talk to your friends at these banks and get referrals directly from them – failing that, go through your school’s resources, look on the banks’ websites, or even try simple Google searches like “Bank Name” + “recruiter.” This sounds stupid, but it actually works.

Wait, So What Should I Do With My Life Now?

Hey, it happens to all of us: who really knows what they’re doing, right?

13. I finished my summer internship, but I worked at a “sourcing” private equity firm and didn’t like the work that much. Is there any advantage to working at this type of firm?

Personally I would hate cold-calling dozens of places each day, but there are some benefits to the experience:

1. You can write “Private Equity” on your resume.
2. Helps with networking / moving to other firms later.
3. Still better than something completely unrelated to finance.
4. Helps with business school admissions.

14. What happens to bankers who get laid off? Is my life over?

No, but you have to move to Buenos Aires. Or if you’re female, sit around your apartment ordering food off Seamless Web and finding a different guy every night.

15. I have an offer at a boutique bank I interned with, but don’t know if I should take it. There’s almost no modeling involved – just qualitative work. Could I still move somewhere better coming from this background?

If that is your best option I would definitely take it. You can still move somewhere else after this type of experience, though you may want to do some independent study to convince them you know enough about valuation and modeling.

16. Is it better to work at a smaller bank and get great deal experience or move to a bulge bracket and be in a less active group?

I hate to say it, but even if your group sucks you will have better luck with recruiting at a bulge bracket bank. Yes, it’s stupid, but that’s just the way it works.

If you go somewhere small you can still end up on the buy-side – but you won’t be at KKR or Blackstone.

Random

Your favorite category.

17. Have you thought about posting photos and stories from your life in Asia here?

Just look at how pissed people got when I said the CFA was a waste of time – now imagine if I wrote about things that were actually controversial, extremely politically incorrect, and completely unrelated to the topic of this site.

18. I noticed that “Harvard” and “Yale” were at opposite ends of your speaking list on the About page – does this have any significance?

Yes, it means you’re reading this site way too much. It’s called “alphabetical order.”

19. Can you write an article about The 4-Hour Workweek and how to apply it to investment banking?

No need for an entire article: “Don’t go into finance” is your answer.

Take a look at this article on how to succeed by slacking off – I’m also writing something on how to apply the 80/20 Rule to your recruiting efforts.

And then there’s the usual bout of bottle service, “lifestyle” and related questions…

Buy-Side Lifestyle

1. I heard that when you get into private equity, you instantly start dating models and everyone from taxi drivers to restaurant chefs begins to worship you. Does anything else cool happen?

Yes. In addition to all that, you also get to become a guest star on Entourage – if you look at some of the party scenes, all the guys in the background are in finance.

2. Can you write a post about bottle service? I’ve heard you get it all the time and it’s the best part about finance.

You go to an overpriced club and pay $400 for alcohol that would cost you $10 elsewhere, then you sit around with your burned out friends talking about how awesome the night is going to be. Then, nothing cool happens and you pass out on the floor of your apartment a few hours later.

3. You’ve said before that you get banking hours at places like KKR and Blackstone, but what about at smaller PE firms like Audax, New Mountain Capital, etc.?

In general, hours at smaller places are better – though still far from 9 to 5 – but you have to be careful because even some of the smaller places have a reputation for working you really hard. Caveat emptor.

4. Do you think buy-side work is more stimulating or more interesting?

There’s less grunt work than in banking (no fixing printers…) but it’s a stretch to say the work is remarkably different. In PE you do a lot of research, due diligence, valuing companies and modeling transactions… sound familiar?

Also similar to banking, the learning curve flattens out after you’ve done a few deals because the process is always the same.

5. Do you get pigeonholed as you advance within the buy-side? For example, if I start out in an energy group in investment bank, am I going to be stuck at energy PE firms for the rest of my career?

It doesn’t always happen, but as you move up your skills will become more and more specialized. Jumping from hedge fund to hedge fund, for example, can be difficult because some funds are focused on extremely narrow skill sets.

So if you haven’t invested in corporate bonds of European alternative energy companies, you might be out of luck if the fund is looking for people who have.

6. Do you think I can get into private equity from undergraduate without investment banking experience? I interned at a local VC firm this past summer.

There are firms that recruit straight out of undergrad, but you need either solid connections at those places, or you have to be at a target school where they come and recruit on-campus.

You also need to convince them that you did “real” work during your internship, and you need to learn basic LBO modeling, how to handle case studies, etc. because they’re bound to come up.

Preparing for Full-Time Recruiting

Here’s what to expect if you’ve had a banking or finance-related internship:

7. I did a banking internship at a boutique this summer, but it wasn’t that technical – what should I expect for full-time interviews?

Your interviews will be very technical and/or they’ll focus exclusively on what you did in your internship. They won’t ask you much in the way of “fit” questions beyond the basics (why banking, walk me through your resume…).

I suggest going over each of your deals, investments, or other projects and writing some notes on the story you want to tell, what you did specifically, and make sure you can back up everything you write on your resume.

For the random technical questions, review all your books, interview guides, and modeling videos, and get friends who have done banking to quiz you.

8. How should I prepare to talk about my banking internship?

Come up with a short 30-second summary to describe what you did at the beginning (Worked at XX bank, focused on XX industries, worked on XX live M&A/IPO/Debt/other deals and helped with valuations and research).

For each deal/project/investment, structure it like a story – “introduce” it by saying what the company did, how big it was in terms of revenue/profit etc. and why it was an interesting client/investment. Then talk about what type of process they wanted to run, or what type of investment you wanted to make, and then the major things that happened along the way (rounds of bidding, what due diligence revealed, etc.).

More on discussing deal experience.

9. I’m not going to receive a full-time offer out of my internship, but a recruiter there offered to “sponsor” me and refer me to other firms – how do I use this to my advantage?

You’re over-thinking this one. Contact her, be very direct, and ask for referrals to other firms. It helps if you’re specific with your requests, so don’t just say, “Tell me about anyone who’s hiring!” – try to narrow it down by geography, industry, or firm size.

How to Network Without Being a Tool

Aside from not being aggressive enough, the single biggest mistake you can make with networking is looking like those nerdy Princeton kids in Harold & Kumar.

10. I have an informational call setup with a recruiter at a middle-market firm. Should I introduce myself by telling her about my 4.0 GPA and other accomplishments?

Sure, that’s a great idea if you want her to think you’re a socially awkward loser.

Use common sense – start by giving your name, where you went to school, and what you’re interested in hearing about – and try to talk about sports, travel, hobbies, etc. rather than asking about “the industry” or trying too hard to seem smart.

11. How should I contact alumni that I haven’t spoken with before?

See above. You definitely need to mention the school connection, in both your subject line for emails and in your first sentence introducing yourself.

Past that, make it a very casual conversation and ask about their background, try to find common interests, and focus on those. The more “off-topic” you can make the conversation, the better.

In emails, just ask to speak to them on the phone for 10 minutes or meet up for coffee and keep it short and very casual – busy people are unlikely to reply to long/complicated requests.

12. How should I handle on-campus information sessions during fall recruiting?

Read this article. Speak to as many people as you can, focusing on the more senior ones, and collect business cards from everyone. Speak for a few minutes (stay away from “business”) and then make up an excuse and say you have to run.

Then, follow-up within a few days and introduce yourself as “the guy/girl who had to run to class” (or whatever excuse you used) so it jogs their memory (hopefully you made a good impression on them as well).

99% of information session attendees fail to get business cards and follow-up, so this is where you can dominate the competition.

Note: I won’t claim credit for the idea above, a reader suggested it in the comments on the informational session article.

13. When do you think it’s appropriate to ask a networking contact to review my resume?

After you’ve spoken at least once. Personally, I don’t think this is that helpful unless you really want input on your resume. If you want to know about internships or jobs, ask about them.

14. Should I develop an “elevator pitch” to use if I run into senior bankers in the morning?

Yes, but don’t over-think it. Try to open with a joke, talk about something that happened that morning, and then briefly say where you work or what you’re doing now.

Finance Failures

With everyone so focused on getting into finance, we often forget what happens if you fail to advance or get laid off on your way up…

15. The article you linked to on laid-off bankers in Buenos Aires made it sound pretty grim – how bad is it if you get laid off as a VP?

It’s not pretty. You’re unlikely to get back into finance at that level unless there’s a massive market rally and everyone starts hiring again.

Most mid-level to senior bankers who get laid off end up going to “industry,” usually after taking a lengthy sabbatical.

16. One of my friends in PE pushed for an investment that ended up being a disaster, and he was forced out. Since it’s such a small community, everyone heard about it and now he can’t find anything else in the industry – is this common?

It’s a risk with anything on the buy-side – if you make a mistake in banking, your semi-colon might be in the wrong spot, but if you make a mistake when investing, you might lose $500 million.

A mistake of that magnitude isn’t common, but yes, you probably couldn’t go back if it were your fault.