Read on to learn all about job postings on Craigslist, whether or not you learn anything useful in banking, the meaning of life, and more – plus my next destination now that I’ve been deported from Asia.

Q: So, why haven’t you done one of these Q&As in such a long time?

A: It’s too hard to find information when it’s presented in Q&A format, and most of the Q&A articles brought in very little long-term traffic compared to, say, the resume template or cover letter template or the private equity interview guide.

But I like giving updates and addressing shorter questions sometimes, so Q&A is back – at least for today.

Got Legitimacy?

Craigslist, certifications (my favorite topic ever), and buying your way into finance: legitimate?

Q: Are those job postings on Craigslist worth applying to? I’ve seen them posted by banks and other financial services firms, but I have no idea whether they’re legit. Thoughts?

A: Sometimes they are actually legitimate, but it’s hard to tell unless they post the name of the firm, which rarely happens.

A bulge bracket investment bank won’t advertise for analyst or associate positions on there, but sometimes real, smaller finance firms do post ads.

Applying online anywhere is 500x less effective than talking to a real person and leveraging that to get an interview, but if you have a few spare minutes, sure, go ahead.

But please don’t spend hours a day on Craigslist looking for that perfect listing.

Q: I know you’re not a fan of the CFA or CPA, but what about the Series 7 / 63 / 65 / 66 / 79? Don’t you think those are more relevant to banking?

A: They might be more relevant, but that doesn’t make them useful. Luckily they take far less study time than the CFA, so if the thought of getting those certifications is keeping you up at night, go ahead.

Just be aware that there’s little point in doing so because you’ll prepare and take them during training anyway if your bank requires it.

Again, work experience, names of schools/companies, and networking matter far more than any certification.

Q: Let’s say I don’t have a banking internship lined up. Do you think those internships where you pay $5,000+ to work for free are worth it?

A: I’ve heard mixed reports. Some of the companies are not real banks or PE firms – they’re just random 2-person operations that have been set up specifically for the internship.

That’s not always the case and sometimes you find legitimate places, but you definitely need to do your own due diligence before you send over thousands of dollars – ask to speak with and visit the firms that are offering the internships first.

The Meaning of Life

Please, no more networking, resume, or interview questions, OK?

Q: You’ve said before that you don’t learn complex math or gain “hard” skills in investment banking. So why should I do it? My parents think I should be a doctor / lawyer / accountant instead since I would at least learn something real!

A: Just show your parents what bankers make compared to what those other professions make and point out the prestige factor and you should be golden.

You don’t gain “hard” skills in the same way you do in those other fields, but you gain something even more valuable: relationships and sales or investing (on the buy-side) skills.

But most people have a hard time assigning value to those skills, so they don’t “get” why financiers make more than the other professions you named.

Q: I don’t understand why it’s so hard to break into finance – you’ve said before that the work isn’t that difficult. I have 15 years of experience working with senior executives, and no bank will even talk to me.

A: The issue is specificity, not difficulty.

It’s like if they’re casting for a movie and need an actor who’s 6’1″ with brown hair and blue eyes: you can be the best actor in the world but if you don’t meet that criteria, you won’t get the role.

Banks focus on recruiting university and business school students 99% of the time because they want people without much experience and people who are willing to pull all-nighters all the time.

Working with senior executives has no bearing on your ability to supervise pitch book production – and you might actually be worse than a newly minted MBA because you will question everything and delay the process.

Q: You’ve said that it’s foolish to follow a “path” and that we should focus on making money instead. But how can you have no plan at all? Isn’t that unstable?

A: I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have any plan – my only point is that creating a detailed 10 or 15-year plan is silly.

Stability is just an illusion – adaptability is far more important.

You don’t have enough information to plan so far in advance, and such a detailed plan will also limit your options – sure, you might want to do 2 years of banking, 2 years of PE, 2 years at HBS, and then go to a hedge fund to conquer the world, but what happens if you change your mind or something better comes along?

Q: I’ve seen comments on your site before that everyone in finance has the “herd mentality” and that no one can think independently.

Do you really think it attracts the best and the brightest? Shouldn’t they be smarter than that?

A: There’s a herd mentality in every industry – finance is not unique. It may not always attract the top students, but for now it still does – though that can easily change, as we saw with advertising in the 60s, bond trading in the 80s, and dot-coms in the 90s.

High-achievers make decisions analytically, and you can’t beat the ROI of finance if you look at money and time invested vs. expected salary, bonus, and prestige afterward.

You could argue that other options are more “fun” but there’s no way to quantify that, so they fall out of the running.

Q: You’re giving readers false hope by posting so many interviews with other readers from lesser-known schools who broke into finance.

The chances of getting into IB/PE/HF from a 2nd tier school are lower than getting into the NFL, and you should do the ethical thing and suggest brokerage and wealth management firms instead.

A: There’s a reason why I’ve labeled these “case studies” – they are examples, not scientifically controlled experiments. Obviously not everyone from lesser-known schools will get into the industry, and I don’t think anyone reading actually expects that.

The chances of getting into IB/PE/HF from a 2nd tier school, while not great, are significantly higher than the chances of becoming a professional athlete because fewer people are interested, there are more spots available, and you don’t need to start training at age 5 to make it.

Most interviews here are about IB and PE because I get the most questions on those, and because most readers are interested in those.

There are also plenty of articles on “Plan B” options and other possibilities such as being a broker vs. being a trader.

So, point taken but we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Life Updates, World Domination, and Mermaids

This is why you really read M&I, of course: entertainment. And mermaids.

Q: I saw on Twitter that you’re leaving Asia and you mentioned somewhere else how it didn’t go well – are you saying the entire region is dysfunctional, or was it just you?

A: The region can’t be dysfunctional if they’re already surpassing (have surpassed?) the West.

I realized after years of working and studying here on and off that I’m an extremely poor cultural fit for most countries in Asia – and that’s about all I will say to avoid to stepping on toes.

I’m off to Australia next, so let me know if you’re in Sydney and we can meet up.

I’ll probably go back to the US eventually but I have no idea when or why, or if it will be voluntary or a result of getting deported from elsewhere.

Q: Now that you’ve done dozens of reader interviews, have a line of 8 products, and hundreds of articles, what are your plans for next year?

A: There are still topics that haven’t been covered yet so I do want to get to those (DCM, LevFin, PWM, ER, Corporate Development, Brazil, Hong Kong, Eastern Europe, Russia, Western Europe…). Some of those are already in progress and will arrive soon.

In terms of products, Real Estate Modeling is coming next and there will also be some additions to the existing courses (e.g. insurance for the FIG course and mining for the Oil & Gas one). I don’t want to go crazy adding 50 new courses because it gets confusing after a certain point.

Two other things I don’t want to do:

1. Re-hash topics that have already been covered.
2. Cover the news (0 long-term value).

So I may change around the format of the site once again to support those goals.

Q: Why don’t you post 500 updates to Twitter each day? You’re not using Facebook Connect! Shouldn’t you be all over social media?!!!

A: It’s not really my style. I use Twitter occasionally but I don’t enjoy following the news and posting updates 24/7, nor do I enjoy sharing minutiae in my personal life.

The value of social media depends on the market you’re in – for something this narrow it’s not terribly helpful, especially since this site is already well-known in the finance community.

YouTube would actually be the most useful social media site, so I might explore that more next year.

Q: What do you do? I don’t understand – can’t you just make this entire site in 5 minutes and then sit back and have mermaids serve you piña coladas? Since you don’t sit in an office, you never do any work, right?

A: I spend most of my time working on this site and BIWS. At first I spent most of my time on writing and promoting content here, but over the past 2 years that shifted more and more to product development.

Recently, I’ve been spending more time training others, bringing on more people to help out with support, and setting up partnership deals.

I’m mobile but I’m never really “on vacation” – at the minimum I’m doing at least a few hours of work every day, including weekends and holidays.

You don’t get to 115 hours of video, nearly 300 articles, hundreds of thousands of monthly visitors, and thousands of customers by sitting on the beach all day.

The mermaids can’t help you with that, even if they’re former banking analysts.

While others could potentially work… if you spin them the right way.

Meanwhile, read even more about networking, living the dream, and my own secret plans for world domination below.

The Banker Formerly Known As Tiger Woods: How Much Can You Spin?

This one is going to work just like a reality TV show: each suggestion or idea gets a thumbs up or thumbs down with notes on what you should actually do (ok I guess they don’t do that last part on TV).

1. I’ve been a pro golfer for the past few years (since I graduated). Do you think I could spin this into having good “client relationship” skills and get into investment banking directly?

I’d bet no on this one, especially if you’ve been doing it for years. It’s just too different from sitting in a cubicle editing spreadsheets – you’d need to go to business school to make this type of move, and then get some kind of finance experience before you go.

2. I’ve had S&T internships but now I want to move into investment banking. Do you think I can spin my experience to make this happen?

Yes. Emphasize any long-term fundamental trading you’ve done, independent study on financial modeling / financial statements, relevant projects, and any time you’ve worked with clients in the past. If you have solid contacts in banking groups, this type of move is do-able.

3. By the time I start full-time recruiting, I’ll have had 3 separate investment banking internships over summers and the school year, and experience working on at least 5 deals. Do you think I could spin this into applying for Associate positions at private equity firms and hedge funds?

I like your thinking, but no. All these places are very structured in their recruiting, and they won’t take you as an Associate without full-time work experience. You could go for Analyst positions, though…

4. If I have no finance experience, can I still get internships? How can I use your resume template if I don’t have any “work experience?”

Yes, you can. If you don’t have “real” experience, then you should spin finance-related clubs/activities, as well as any seminars or case competitions you’ve been in as “work & leadership experience.” Even if something only lasted a few days you could still write more about that than real work.

5. I’m going to a community college right now – can I still make this look good and get investment banking internships?

Difficult – I’ve never heard of anyone going from a community college to a banking internship. Your best bet is to transfer to a 4-year school instead. Doesn’t have to be Harvard, but it should be somewhere where at least a few people go into finance.

6. Is it ok to omit jobs from my resume if they won’t help with recruiting at all? Or is that lying?

Depends on what you’re omitting, but usually it’s fine as long as you’re not leaving out major internships / full-time experience. Part-time jobs, activities, etc. can all be omitted. If it won’t help you with recruiting, leave it out unless you’ve got nothing else to write about.

7. I was working in PE, but got laid off, and now I’m applying to both private equity and investment banking jobs. How can I convince investment bankers that I’m actually serious about banking?

This one’s a tough sell. No matter what you say, no banker will believe you 100% – you can list all the usual reasons (wanting to close more deals, more exposure) and then point out that it would be easier for you to go back into PE, so if you weren’t serious why would you be applying to IB?

8. I’m at a Top 5 school doing a graduate program there right now, but I’ve realized I don’t want to be in academia, so I’m thinking of dropping out and pursuing investment banking jobs full-time. How can I spin this in a positive light?

I think you’re getting ahead of yourself there. Why drop out right now if you’re attending a top school? Use the name to contact alumni and banks and get interviews, then think about dropping out if something works out.

How to Deal with Unhelpful People When Networking

Sometimes you reach someone who just doesn’t care and won’t help you. Most of the time, you should cut your losses and move on rather than wasting hours on 1 person.

9. What do you do when you reach an unhelpful HR person who won’t put you through to real bankers when you’re cold-calling?

If he/she keeps saying “no” no matter what you try and will not put you in touch with any decision-makers, try again the next day/next week and try to speak with someone different. Getting the right person makes more of a difference than what you say.

10. Let’s say I went to an information session but didn’t have time to talk to everyone there. However, I have a list and contact information for all the bankers who I attended – can I follow-up with them, even if I didn’t speak to them there?

You could do this but it’s hard to have a solid “reason why” if you didn’t speak to them at all. Maybe do some research first and find something specific about their background you want to ask about, say you got their information from the session, and follow-up like that.

11. You write a lot about networking, but is it helpful at all for PE? It seems like the private equity recruiting process is dominated by headhunters, so how much can networking really do?

It’s still helpful for PE, but it doesn’t work as well as at it does at banks because PE firms are tiny by comparison. You have to be a lot more targeted and only go for specific industries / geographies / investment sizes or you’ll spend a lot of time chasing leads that never pan out.

12. You’ve said that the phone and meeting in-person are always better than email, but isn’t it weird to immediately call someone I met at an information session?

You should probably still email first unless he/she specifically said to call. It’s not necessarily weird if you spoke for a long time and got to know the person really well, but otherwise email to remind them who you are first.

Living the Dream

No, not banking. The real dream.

13. You say that we should travel to a new country and spend a few months there doing something interesting, but that’s easier said than done. How do I find anything to do if I’m by myself? I can’t imagine what I would do alone in a different country.

You need to make friends and establish a social circle ASAP. Four concrete methods I’ve used before:

1. Go on Facebook and look for events/parties/clubs in that region, then show up at events and meet other people there.
2. Look on Meetup.com for groups you might be interested in, and meet people there.
3. Ask your hotel staff for recommendations based on what you want to do/learn.
4. Just talk to random people. In the US people are scared of strangers, but meeting people randomly is more common in other parts of the world.

Similar to networking, this is scary at first but after awhile it becomes paint-by-numbers.

14. If I follow your plan and learn a language somewhere else for a few months, could I leverage this in interviews or for recruiting purposes?

Unless you’re better than the average native speaker, you can’t use a language for business purposes. You can get pretty good conversationally in only a few months, but you won’t be able to understand a lecture on quantum superposition or the ramifications of a multi-lateral nuclear arms disarmament treaty and learn 100,000 words in 3 months.

Anything you learn is a nice bullet point to have and is good to talk about in interviews, but you won’t be able to work in another office unless you’re at a very high level.

15. Could I use experience living abroad to prove that I have “good communication skills” in interviews? Can I use that as something that stands out about me vs. everyone else?

This could be part of your pitch, but you need to back it up with specific examples. Just saying, “Of course I have good communication skills, I’ve lived in 10 countries before!” doesn’t resonate too much.

16. Can you create another site on how you can travel around the world while actually making money, like you do? I’m bored of finance and want to do this instead.

I’ve thought about it, but not right now – too busy with this site and related projects. Maybe next year.

Top-Secret Business Questions & Answers

For some reason lately I’ve received more questions than usual on “the business” of this site. So here we go.

17. You mentioned something new that would be coming soon. Are you starting a forum?

No. I only do something if existing solutions are poor / non-existent and if it will actually help you. There’s no way that I could improve upon WallStreetOasis, so there’s no point.

So far no one has successfully guessed this new addition (which will be coming next year now).

18. Why did you shift away from resumes and interviews and focus more on modeling and networking this year?

Three reasons:

1. There was approximately 503,676% more demand for those topics vs. resume editing / interview practice.
2. 90% of what I did for resume edits is encapsulated with a simple template right here. Remember that 80/20 rule?
3. It’s almost impossible to “teach” someone how to interview well because so much of it comes down to non-verbal communication.

19. You’ve already written so much here, what do you plan to do in the future? It seems like most topics have been covered.

Good point. In the future it will switch to mostly case studies and interviews with readers – there’s only so much you can write about the basics of resumes, networking, and interviewing.

If you want to work in distressed investing, do you need to start at a bank’s Restructuring group first?

What if you’re a serial entrepreneur?

Oh, and what if you were a male escort in a former life?

Today we’re going to take a look at Experienced Transitions and how you might get into finance / investment banking if you’re NOT an undergraduate, MBA student, or recent graduate.

Help Me, M&I, You’re My Only Hope

1. I’m 50 years old, but recently got interested in investment banking. Can I get in?

You can, but not at the Analyst/Associate level – you would need to be in a related field like law or PE and use your senior-level relationships to get in at the senior level. I know of Partner-level lawyers who have done this.

I’m sure someone will try to find a counter-example, so go ahead: I challenge you to find a single example of a 50-year old being hired as an Analyst or Associate.

2. Most of your advice is targeted at recent grads. What would you say if I’m in my mid-30s, have an MBA, and have started several companies before?

I would say, “It’s tough.” Ordinarily I would say, “Go to business school,” but you’ve already done that – so your best bet is to pitch yourself as having a lot of relationships in a particular industry, and get hired at a more senior level.

It’s hard to get into the industry at the mid-level because banks like either 1) Young people who are more “malleable” or 2) Very senior people with a wealth of relationships.

3. I graduated two years ago and decided to move overseas and work for the finance department of a large company. I opened up dozens of new branches and got great experience, but now I want to get back into investment banking – can I do it?

You can, but I would not even bother with bulge brackets unless you have some type of killer connection. Go for boutiques or any firm/group that specializes in the industry you were in.

It’s too early for business school for you, so if you’re really serious I would start networking and see what kind of response you get.

4. I worked in private equity for 3 years out of undergraduate, and then got my MBA. I’m back to my old PE firm now, but I want to move into investment banking. Yes, you read that correctly: I know it’s the opposite of what most people do. What should I do?

If you’re already done with your MBA, you can’t really take advantage of on-campus recruiting so you’ll have to network a lot – which shouldn’t be that hard, considering you work in private equity and must know a lot of bankers.

Their key question will be “WHY?!!!” so you better have a really, really, really, super-good “reason why” or you won’t make it very far.

5. I’m a recently-laid-off attorney who worked on a lot of Restructuring deals – I want to move into Distressed Investing, but do I need to go to a bank first? I want to avoid that if possible.

Not necessarily. The main question will be “Can you count?” so you need to do something to demonstrate that you know basic valuation and modeling – whether that’s independent study, training programs, or taking classes.

At your level, you could also consider contacting headhunters directly because you have some very relevant experience.

6. I originally wanted to do biomedical research in university – but then I decided to do business at the last-minute and have worked at a finance research firm for the past year. How can I convince banks that I know enough about finance to do the job?

See above: independent study, classes, financial modeling training programs. Keep in mind that a big part of any interview is confidence. Even if you don’t know exactly what you’re talking about, if you can say it confidently sometimes they won’t notice.

I would also suggest going after healthcare-focused boutiques, healthcare/medical research-focused equity research groups, etc. to take advantage of your background.

7. I have 5 years of experience as a stock broker and did my undergraduate degree in Computer Science – what’s my best option for working at a bulge bracket bank?

Ah, finally an easy one: a top business school.

8. I used to own my own business, and then I went to Tokyo and “worked” at a club where I had to pick up Japanese girls on the street and talk them into visiting my club and buying $5000 bottles of Cognac to drink with me.

I made a lot of money but got tired of being a “male escort,” so I moved back to the US and am finishing up my undergraduate degree now. Am I “interesting” enough to get interviews?

Dude, I would hire you on the spot just for having been a male escort in Tokyo. You sound way cooler than AJ.

You will definitely catch bankers’ attention with that kind of “story” – but keep in mind that you also need to have a good reason for going into finance, and you need to show them that you know something about the industry.

And, of course, if you’re not a top school you will need to make an intense networking effort to have a good shot of getting interviews.

Netiquette

That’s Networking + Etiquette, not Internet Etiquette…

9. Should I attach my resume when I’m cold-emailing boutiques with my “pitch?”

Yes. If you’re cold-emailing to ask explicitly about jobs, don’t beat around the bush: show them why you’re good, and then follow-up until you hear back.

10. What are the rules for following up after you’ve met bankers at information sessions?

This is a broad question but the most important points are:

1. Always have a “reason why” – a request, suggestion to meet, a question, etc. Don’t just say, “Hi, how are you?”
2. You don’t need to follow-up based on some arbitrary timeline, but try to stay in touch at least once every 2-3 months.
3. Don’t be afraid to ask about recruiting/interviews, especially if it’s close to recruiting season – if you’ve made a good impression they will help you.

11. You’ve written before about cold-calling boutique and merchant banks, but where can I find a list of firms by region?

I’m not one to drop blatant hints about upcoming additions and new products, but you should watch this site very closely over the next month.

12. You mentioned before we should contact recruiters at banks directly if we have exploding offers – but what’s the best way to get their contact information?

The best way is to talk to your friends at these banks and get referrals directly from them – failing that, go through your school’s resources, look on the banks’ websites, or even try simple Google searches like “Bank Name” + “recruiter.” This sounds stupid, but it actually works.

Wait, So What Should I Do With My Life Now?

Hey, it happens to all of us: who really knows what they’re doing, right?

13. I finished my summer internship, but I worked at a “sourcing” private equity firm and didn’t like the work that much. Is there any advantage to working at this type of firm?

Personally I would hate cold-calling dozens of places each day, but there are some benefits to the experience:

1. You can write “Private Equity” on your resume.
2. Helps with networking / moving to other firms later.
3. Still better than something completely unrelated to finance.
4. Helps with business school admissions.

14. What happens to bankers who get laid off? Is my life over?

No, but you have to move to Buenos Aires. Or if you’re female, sit around your apartment ordering food off Seamless Web and finding a different guy every night.

15. I have an offer at a boutique bank I interned with, but don’t know if I should take it. There’s almost no modeling involved – just qualitative work. Could I still move somewhere better coming from this background?

If that is your best option I would definitely take it. You can still move somewhere else after this type of experience, though you may want to do some independent study to convince them you know enough about valuation and modeling.

16. Is it better to work at a smaller bank and get great deal experience or move to a bulge bracket and be in a less active group?

I hate to say it, but even if your group sucks you will have better luck with recruiting at a bulge bracket bank. Yes, it’s stupid, but that’s just the way it works.

If you go somewhere small you can still end up on the buy-side – but you won’t be at KKR or Blackstone.

Random

Your favorite category.

17. Have you thought about posting photos and stories from your life in Asia here?

Just look at how pissed people got when I said the CFA was a waste of time – now imagine if I wrote about things that were actually controversial, extremely politically incorrect, and completely unrelated to the topic of this site.

18. I noticed that “Harvard” and “Yale” were at opposite ends of your speaking list on the About page – does this have any significance?

Yes, it means you’re reading this site way too much. It’s called “alphabetical order.”

19. Can you write an article about The 4-Hour Workweek and how to apply it to investment banking?

No need for an entire article: “Don’t go into finance” is your answer.

Take a look at this article on how to succeed by slacking off – I’m also writing something on how to apply the 80/20 Rule to your recruiting efforts.