How to Break Into Investment Banking as a Career-Changer in a Part-Time, Non-Target MBA Program

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Career Changer Breaking Into Investment BankingNo clever introductions for this one because this story already has more twists and turns than 24 or Lost – so let’s get right into it.

Background

Q: Walk us through your resume.

A: I came from a liberal arts background as an undergraduate, and worked in commercial property management after I graduated.

After a few years I got interested in investment banking, but by that point I had already been out of school for awhile and I didn’t have much of a quantitative background, so I decided that going back to business school was my best bet.

I went to a well-known, though not “target,” program – you would know the school if I mentioned it here, but not many large banks actively recruited there.

To make things even worse, I was enrolled in the part-time program there – so I only had access to the career center and its resources in my last few terms.

Q: So I’m guessing you had to do a lot of networking. Can you tell us about what your overall approach was?

A: Sure. Before I even started networking, I wanted to make sure I had my “story” right, so I spent a lot of time on that.

My basic “story”: I came from a background where I had to work with tenants constantly and develop relationships with lots of different people – which is a critical skill if you want to make it to the top in investment banking.

I said that in the long-term, I wanted to be a trusted advisor to CEOs and other executives, and that I saw investment banking as a way to leverage my previous background to get there.

This story worked very well for Associate-level interviews – they want to see more evidence of leadership and client relationship skills because they’re grooming you to make it to the top one day.

In terms of networking, I ignored bulge bracket banks for the most part and focused on middle-market and boutique banks because they were much more receptive to someone like me.

I didn’t focus that much on the “results” per se – I was genuinely interested in getting to know people in the industry and learning more all the time, which made a huge difference.

Too many people go into the process only looking forward to the outcome, which makes it hard to stay motivated and actually make a good impression on everyone you meet.

Overcoming Roadblocks

Q: Ok, so you have your “story” laid out and you’re in the right mindset. How did you decide who to contact each week? What did you say, and to whom did you say it?

A: I focused on 2nd and 3rd year Associates, as well as some 1st Year VPs – I wanted people who had been there long enough to actually have influence over the hiring process.

These types of people were also more likely to be staffers – and to therefore have even more influence on hiring decisions.

I sent around 2-3 emails per day, pretty much every single day – I was pretty direct and told them explicitly I was interested in moving into investment banking or moving to their firm specifically, and that I wanted to get their thoughts on how best to position myself.

I would always request either a call or a meeting in the initial email, and would then spend most of the time asking about the other person’s background.

Q: What kind of resistance did you face because of your background? Was the part-time MBA program an issue, or was your non-finance background a bigger problem?

A: I was always very upfront about attending the part-time MBA program, and it was never an issue. When it came time for full-time recruiting, I already had an internship by then so no one looked at me differently.

My non-finance background was more of a problem – in every meeting I had they always said, “So why do you want to move into finance, and why now?”

By this point I had gotten really, really good at telling my “story” and answering these objections before they even came up, so that wasn’t much trouble after the first few informational interviews.

Q: What tactics were most effective in going from meetings and phone calls to actual interviews? Did you have to do anything differently at the MBA-level?

A: Not really – it was mostly just continuous pressure that led to interviews at most places. I kept emailing people and saying, “Just wanted to reiterate my interest in your firm, and re-visit our conversation.”

You can’t take it personally when you don’t get a response – a lot of people purposely ignore you just to assess how serious you are.

The (Partial) Results

Q: Ok, so you’re networking extensively… how did you end up with an internship?

A: Continuous pressure – I was speaking with a local bank and kept contacting them to say I was interested. I could tell they wanted an intern but weren’t 100% certain they actually wanted to hire one – those types of leads are often better to go after vs. places that have no clue what they want.

Q: And how well did you do in full-time recruiting with this internship under your belt?

A: I mentioned it was a really, really bad year, right? I interviewed with a lot of banks but came away with no full-time offers at well-known banks that year – even though I had done a ton of networking and actually had an investment banking internship.

Q: A lot of people would have probably given up or set their sights on a different field at this point. What did you do?

A: I decided to postpone my official graduation date by a year – just to keep myself “in school” – and I kept networking and ended up with an offer at a local boutique.

But it was quite a bit different from a large bank, and the learning opportunities were uneven – we spent a lot of time chasing after lower-probability deals.

The other problem was that it was unpaid – I received no base salary, and was paid only when deals closed.

That’s fine if you’re an MD with millions of dollars in savings, dozens of different clients, and you expect deals to close – but it was a huge issue when you’re just starting out and need to pay the bills.

M&I Note: One of the advantages of a part-time MBA program is that you can more easily move around your graduation date.

Moving Into Industry?

Q: Ok, so you’re at this small firm where the work you’re doing is not quite what you expected and where you’re not getting paid. What then?

A: I had to leave because of the lack of any base salary. I had worked on several deals and at least had something substantial to talk about in interviews now, so I felt that it had served its purpose.

One of the MDs was from a larger firm, and brought in a lot of deals – I worked with him a few times, so I got decent experience in the time I was there.

After leaving, I went to a local company “in industry” and became Director of Finance there.

Q: Most people would say that going FROM investment banking back TO industry is the kiss of death and that you can’t move back into finance if you’ve done that. What were you thinking?

A: I took the job because it was a management-level role and because it allowed me to interact with the CEO pretty much every day.

I knew I could leverage it for investment banking interviews in the future because now I could say, “I understand both finance AND how company executives in a particular industry think.”

It allowed me to go into investment banking interviews and say 2 things:

  1. I can get inside the heads of CEOs in this industry because I know exactly how they think.
  2. Other people are coming in from the Ivory Tower, but I have real-world experience related to investment banking.

Q: Right, but did banks actually take you seriously? Most people in finance view “industry” in a very negative way.

A: You need to get creative. Any experience is better than sitting on your butt doing nothing.

Believe it or not, this industry experience actually helped me more than my investment banking internships because I applied to matching industry groups, and it helped me stand out vs. everyone else.

Sure, in a perfect world we’d all work at Goldman Sachs – but things rarely go as planned, and you need to improvise and spin what you have into sounding relevant when that happens.

Back Into Banking?

Q: Ok, so you’re at this local company as Director of Finance for a few months now. How did you move back into banking after you had already left for industry?

A: It’s not as difficult as you might think, at least if you do it the right way. Here’s what I did:

  1. I considered A LOT of other options, like startup banks, public finance firms, and more – if nothing worked out in banking, I wanted a Plan B, C, and D.
  2. I never stopped networking – I continued talking to everyone and browsing my business school’s job board even after I had been through 2 other jobs by this point.
  3. I focused on highly relevant groups – investment banking industry groups that matched my background when I was Director of Finance at the local company. I made sure I wasn’t just applying for the sake of applying – I knew that I’d have to be more targeted given my history.

Q: How did you change around your resume in light of everything you had done – and how did you get it in the hands of bankers?

A: I re-wrote my entire resume to “bankify” it and to add more meaty material, focusing on what I had done at the boutique and also as Director of Finance at the local firm. It looked significantly better than when I had only had the internship from the year before.

I got interviews at a bulge bracket bank and at a well-known middle-market / boutique firm by applying to off-campus postings on my school’s job board.

I also noticed that I had spoken with a guy at the middle market / boutique firm a year ago when he was at a different bank, so I called him up again, told him I was interested in interviewing there, and got his thoughts on the company.

Q: Had you had any contact with him since you spoke with him a year ago?

A: Nope. I contacted lots of others I had last spoken with 2-3 years ago as well – obviously after that length of time you can’t go and request an in-depth conversation, but if you’re friendly and casually reach out to people, good things will happen.

A lot of people think you need to stay in touch with 500 industry contacts 24/7 and that the sky will fall if you don’t – but so few people ever bother networking that simply by reaching out at all you put yourself in an elite group.

Don’t obsess over details and individual words in emails… as long as you’re networking at all, you’re well ahead of most people.

M&I Note: Never, ever, ever overestimate the competition

Associate-Level Interviews

Q: Ok, so you have 2 solid leads and interviews lined up at both the bulge bracket and the boutique / middle-market bank. What were interviews like, and how were they different from what an Analyst might face?

A: The interviews themselves were not dramatically different – it was the usual set of phone interviews, followed by in-person rounds later on, with technical and “fit” questions similar to what you normally see.

The bulge bracket featured a case study in their interview process, where I had to talk about how to analyze a company in a dying industry and how to establish what kind of cash flows they might achieve should they expand into more lucrative markets.

Overall the interviews were no more technical than what anyone else interviewing for entry-level positions might get, but they do expect you to be more polished at the MBA-level.

There was also more thought required – a lot of the questions were not standard “Walk me through a DCF”-type questions, but were about specific companies or more unusual scenarios.

Q: So how did the interviews go?

A: With the well-known boutique / middle-market bank, everything just clicked and I fit in with the team from the start, so I got an offer there. I came very close at the bulge bracket bank, but lost out to other candidates in the final round.

Q: Did you try to negotiate your salary or bonus at all?

A: No, because I felt the offer they gave me was in-line with the market as a whole, and that negotiating it might have damaged some of the goodwill – the relationship kind, not the accounting kind – that I had built up throughout the interview process.

I’m not even sure that it’s possible to negotiate much with well-established banks, at least for Analyst or Associate positions.

Future Plans & Final Thoughts

Q: You went through quite an ordeal to get into a well-known investment bank. Are you planning to stay there, or will you try to hop into PE as soon as you can?

A: At this point, I’m planning to stay here – for two reasons:

  1. My whole pitch was that I wanted to be a trusted advisor to companies and executives. I had to believe that for it to be believable, and I still do want to do that.
  2. Getting into PE is a fairly well-defined path, and it’s hard for anyone who hasn’t been an investment banking analyst.

If I got tired of banking at some point, I would probably look at opportunities within industry instead – I already have the experience and could easily go back to that.

While the life of an MD may not be all peachy, it would also be hard to leave if I got there one day.

For Associate-level interviews, you need to show that you’re committed to the industry for the long-term or else no one will take you seriously.

Q: You were very successful breaking into investment banking, even though your story had more than its fair share of twists and turns. Looking back on it, is there anything you would have done differently? Any advice for readers?

A: I made two main mistakes with networking:

  1. My tracking tool was very poor. I should have tracked the “temperature” of each lead to see whether each person was “warm” and to properly prioritize my efforts. I also should have included an agenda for each person with an idea of how he/she could be helpful – Referrals? Advice? Interviews?
  2. I failed to explore all avenues for networking – I completely neglected undergraduate alumni, professors, and people at my church, for example. While you could argue those are lower probability to begin with, all it takes is one.

My only other advice is to enjoy the networking process itself. If you don’t like talking to people, you’re never going to make it in the industry – as an investment banker you spend a lot of time emailing and calling people, even as an Analyst.

Have fun with it, and keep in mind that no matter how screwed you seem or how many “fatal” moves you make, you never lose unless you give up – just re-read my own story if you want a reminder of that.

About the Author

is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and Breaking Into Wall Street. In his spare time, he enjoys learning obscure Excel functions, editing resumes, obsessing over TV shows, and traveling so much that he's forced to add additional pages to his passport on a regular basis.

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69 Comments to “How to Break Into Investment Banking as a Career-Changer in a Part-Time, Non-Target MBA Program”

Comments

  1. Ryan says

    I’ve heard much talk about the importance of using vacation time to take a break from the long hours of banking. As I join a full-time analyst program in the summer, I’m wondering how do you know when it is an appropriate time to take leave. I worry about not wanting to miss out on work to get ahead, while others are still contributing.

  2. Capt says

    Though I haven’t had any IBD experience, through networking I may have a potential opportunity at a small PE shop. The person at the PE firm is asking for a work sample of any kind (excel, ppt, etc) to see what I have done before. Of course, as my luck would have it, when my computer crashed I lost all of my files from college and don’t have anything substantial to present. Do you recommend I explain the situation or try to put something together and send that in instead??

    • CK says

      Long time reader, first time poster, big fan of the site.

      Question – how do we know that these stories / case studies are true?

      • says

        You think I would publish fake stories after writing hundreds of articles on this site over 3 years and building up trust with thousands of readers?

        Beyond the fact that everything comes from interviews with readers (see here: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/become-famous-in-2010/) there’s also the fact that I could never make up a story like this given all the details.

        I’m a bit disappointed with the response, though, so I probably won’t be doing as many of these as I had planned.

        • Positive Carry says

          More of this kind of articles please. It shows real life cases and many of them overcome the prejudices one may have from reading a lot of articles and forums on WSO on what’s possible and what’s not.

          Seems to me that a lot of “kiss of death” & “point of no return”-rules may in fact be broken – and successful.

  3. YH says

    Recently I had several 1st rounds with different groups/offices (e.g TMT, M&A/SF/ NY…etc for the same bank. (The interviews were all in the career center) For the selection process, do they end up discussing candidates with another?

  4. Janet says

    Really like these stories. Hope that more are coming.

    Just one question to ask. I’ve bought the module excellence with Excel and am about to start a seasonal internship with a bb in equity research. I understand that most of them covered in the course apply to research but are there any other skills I should acquaint myself with? (not limit to Excel) I heard that for research analysts, VBA is quite important. Is that true?

    Thanks!

    • says

      I don’t think you need VBA, especially if this is just an internship. Maybe learn the basics if you really want, but aside from that just focus on the key accounting / valuation / modeling skills you’ll need for the research internship.

      • Janet says

        Thanks!

        Another questions is that when I declined an offer from a regional boutique, they actually asked where I will be going which many people told me not to reveal. Will that be a big matter if I told them or should I just ignore the enquiry email?

        • says

          It doesn’t really matter – telling them where you’re going to be working is fine. I think it would actually be worse to ignore it should you ever want to go back there or contact them again.

  5. says

    how bad is a 3.5 for junior SA recruiting in an econ major? if i manage to get interviews ( i have boutique experience, lots of leadership & go to an Ivy) how much grilling should i expect for that

      • says

        nevermind, got rejected from every OCR elite boutique/consulting firm/BB so i guess interview grilling isnt my biggest concern. my experience (IB, live deal experience, head of a business that generates >$20k/month in revenue, etc) shouldn’t be an issue, and neither is my school. I’m guessing that GPA is a big red mark on my resume, even after networking with a person at nearly every one of these firms – besides get it up to 3.6 for FT am I basically screwed?

        • says

          3.6 vs. 3.5 makes a marginal difference at best. You should probably have someone look over your resume, because my guess is that something relatively simple might have stopped you from getting interviews.

  6. intern says

    I have always wondered how exactly to network your way into IB. Say you follow the guy’s advice and start contacting 2nd and 3rd year associates. Sounds good but the reality is that these people are so busy that if they don’t know you, your chances of receiving a positive reply are infinitely close to zero. I imagine that they can even get annoyed if you are too pushy. I guess your best shot would then be to connect with analysts and mention who recommended that you contact associates for more info etc. Analysts tend to be more responsive to people with no previous IB experience.

    What’s your opinion on that ?
    Thanks!

    • says

      You should read the other networking articles and videos on this site.

      Some people are not helpful, but many of them are – having a shared background is very helpful and will boost your response rate, as it did for this reader (notice how everyone he contacted was an alum).

  7. Mark says

    If you take a job at a technology-focused boutique IB, are you more pigeon-holed than other industry groups? Is it harder to move to other boutiques? Can you still go into PE or just VC? Is it a good time to go into tech? I don’t really care about what industry I do, but I want to make sure it leaves options open.

    • says

      You generally get more specialized as you move up. PE/VC are possible, but for PE you are more likely to go to a tech PE fund, or within banking you’re more likely to go to a tech group. I think it’s a fine time to work in tech, but keep in mind that no matter what you do you get more specialized as you move up.

  8. Gatorade says

    I am in a similar spot as the guy in your story, and I also made it into a boutique no name for investment banking. However, I really really want to do private equity at a upper middle fund or above. I would say around 1 billion minimum or more under management.

    Can I do this from my boutique or should I lateral first?

    • says

      $1 Billion+ is hard from a no-name boutique – better-known boutique or MM bank at the very least would help, so I would consider lateraling.

  9. Takashi says

    Is there a “Polite” way to ask for referrals?
    I find it extremely difficult to get referrals, especially in Asian offices.
    Employers in China/Japan seems to be thinking
    “Referrals(Networking)=Expediency”
    I need asian offices cuz US office arent cutting us internationals much slack thanks to the TARP Foreign Hire Restrictions. Speaking of it, any tips for internationals?
    Please dont think we’re stealing your jobs :(
    We’ll use all we earn in US anyway! :)

    • says

      Tips on international applicants are coming soon. For politely asking for referrals, I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring to, but if you’re contacting someone for the first time I would just ask at the end of the conversation “By the way, do you know of anyone else who would be a good match and would be willing to speak with me?”

      If you’re emailing them, I would probably only ask on the 2nd or 3rd contact – just say “I know you’re really busy, but if you know anyone else who has a similar background to me I’d appreciate it if you could put me in touch.”

  10. Ish says

    Ok. First off, great website and this is a great post. My situation is similar to the one discussed. I am pursuing my MAB at a non target school (GW) and hoping to break into IB. I am 27 and hope to complete the MBA in next two years. I completed my undegrad in 2005 (B.S. in Econ). I am currently doing finance at a Defense Firm. My question is, do I have a shot? Obviously Networking is key and there are alums who are/have in IB.

  11. XX says

    What would you think if I have 5 years of full time experience, with latest 2 years working in a well known data provider with above average modeling skills (using MS Excel and its own formulas), finished the CFA, working in the IB team (clients are Investment Bankers but still not “REAL” IB experience), and got referrals from my clients but still get blocked by the HR for an interview? Do I still need a MBA from a target university for an associate position?

  12. Ariana says

    Is it worth doing an Executive MBA at a school like LBS (Dubai stream) if you want to get a job in Private Equity / Investment Banking.

  13. Thomas says

    Dear Brian,

    I’ve been browsing around your website for a few months, and i have some questions i’d like to ask you.

    Having taken an unusual career path to break into IB, I wish you could tell me your opinion about the opportunities offered to me.

    Currently in my 5th year of Medical Studies in Paris ( Top 1 Medical University in France ), I’d like to reoriente myself towards the Biotech, Healthcare or pharmaceutics specialized IB.

    I think I’ll finish my Medical Studies and apply to a Financiel MSc or an MBA.

    What English or American universities would be appropriate for me to apply to ?
    Will be able to me apply to an MBA after only 4 yeards as resident in the Medical Field ?
    What would the opportunities be for me in M&A, ECM or PE ?
    What kind of bank / boutique shoud I apply with this background ?
    When Should I apply, after a hopefully 3 ou 6 months internship ? As an Analyst ? As an Associate ?

    Would the carrer progression within the firm be faster having a PhD and a Msc or MBA ?

    What are the Banks / Boutique with the best Healthcare Teams ( USA & EMEA ) ?

    Sincerely,

    TS.

    • M&I - Nicole says

      Can’t help w the first two questions cause we don’t teach people to get into grad school

      Perhaps you should look at IB industries/IB firms/PE groups that focus on healthcare. I’m not quite sure how relevant our background is to other industry groups/ECM

      Not sure how the system is France works; I’d suggest you to apply for internships while in school to get your foot in the door

      Your career progression w/i the firm depends on your performance in the firm, not whether you have an MBA/PhD etc or not.

      Re banks w the best healthcare teams, I think readers who have access to Dealogic can answer your question – can’t pull the league table up on my end

  14. xxx says

    Hi,
    I am from Indonesia. I just graduated last year and I am currently working in one of a US global bank based in here. I am planning to move to IB. One of my dad’s friend’s son is the head of fixed income division in BNP Paribas here. I do not know him and his dad. What kind bonding techniques would you recommend when I contact this person? Thank you.

  15. xxx says

    One more, an acquitance I met back during my study in Singapore has just started his own PE firm in Indonesia. What should I say to ask him for a job in his firm without previous IB experience? Thank you.

  16. Jason says

    Hi, in terms of networking, my dad has who is in the business has got some contacts. I have finally got some influential ppl in the industry who have kinda agreed informally to me joining in. However, I am quite unsure as to how networking actually works to get a job. Usually, is it a formal offer or just a foot in the door for an interview? I am afraid that I will be subjected to the strict and tough 4 stage interviews for the management associate program. Although, if I do get a chance, it is a huge opportunity.

    Just curious as I have gone through back door internships at bulge bracket firms before without an interview or even a look at my cv. Internships to my knowledge are easier and almost an instant entry through networking. However, not really sure if that is applicable for jobs espc for entry level analyst. THank you

    • M&I - Nicole says

      Usually, is it a formal offer or just a foot in the door for an interview?

      In quite a few cases it is just a foot in the door but this can make or break you because many people don’t even have the chance

      In your case I’m not sure you’ll have to ask your contact

  17. Sean says

    Hi. I’ve been reading this site for quite some time. A big fan from Malaysia here.

    I have been wanting to break into IBD but for my background (third class engineering degree) i think its very difficult to get in. I’ve thought of networking but there are not many IB here, let alone MM/boutique banks. So I decided to go for the MBA route, however,

    – study abroad is not an option
    – Top MBA schools like LSE, Oxbridge, etc do not have their campus here in Malaysia.
    – The option I got is MBA from University of Nottingham (Malaysia Campus), a non target school.

    How would you recommend me to break into IBD? Is MBA from Nottingham any good or would I better off networking?

    Warmest regards

  18. Paul says

    Hi! I am doing an internship in trade finance sales team (completely different from sales and trading) at a top BB. Do you think I can leverage it to get a job in IB in some way? Consider that I am already in my last year master degree, however in my country usually students do internships even in the year after the post graduate degree

    • M&I - Nicole says

      I’m not 100% sure, but I think the most important thing is for you to start networking with bankers in your bank and start the conversation! I think you can leverage your network and spin the communication and sales skills you learned to break into banking. With the above being said, you’ll have to demonstrate your knowledge of valuation and investing (and the markets) if you want to break into S&T

  19. Drew says

    Awesome website. Thanks for all of the great information. I am and American citizen, 31 years old, and about 8 months away from graduating with a BBA in finance (3.85 GPA) from a non-target school. I am making a career change from a professional tennis coach. I have decent international experience (China and Australia), and can speak Mandarin. I can spin my China job as an operations manager position, which I held for about three years. I have also made some pretty good personal investments, with my best making over 320% (NOK). Do I have any chance to get into banking? If so, what route do you suggest I take?

    Thanks!

  20. Adrian says

    Hi! Big fan of your website here! An international student from malaysia and currently in my final year at a UK semi-target, done internships in consulting and corporate finance in my home country. However, am currently considering doing a masters at a target in the UK to try and break into IBD at a BB in London post-masters but as this was a last minute plan all that I am able to land this summer is an internship at a BB in Malaysia for a role in asset management+marketing, but more focused on marketing though. Would you reckon that I still take up this internship considering its brand name? Or I will be better off not to since it is not related to IBD?

    • M&I - Nicole says

      Yes if you have time I’d take this internship because of its brand name unless you have other opportunities on hand. You can also leverage this opportunity for other roles and masters at target universities. You can also develop a network of people who can help you break into IB so I would go for it

  21. Ting says

    I have worked for two yeas in a one of the top tier banks in the world.However my experiences are not relevant to the investment banking area. What do you advise me to do in order to break into the investment banking industry? Thanks!

  22. Dan says

    Hi M&I,

    I’m at a crossroads right now, and I decided to seek out some valuable advice on this post, because Brian’s story resonates with mine a bit.

    So I went to a top 20 undergrad semi-target in the US, had some real estate finance internships, and worked for a year in the US for a financial information firm (bloomberg, capIQ, etc.), before being forcibly moved to the London office due to losing the H1B work visa lottery (I’m an EU citizen)

    Now I’ve been here a year, and really want to break into Banking. Recently, I got into LSE’s Master of Finance Part-time program, and am unsure of how to proceed. I’m wondering, if I don’t have relevant banking internships, will this part-time program be worth it? How much will LSE’s name help me, and is it absolutely necessary for me to have an internship for full-time recruiting? Should I just forget about the masters, grind it out for a few more years and do a MBA instead?

    Also, I understand I would only be eligible for Analyst positions with a masters. Will banks ignore me if I already have 2 years of full-time experience and am taking a part-time masters, because they consider me too “old”?

    Thanks a lot for your time, really appreciate it!

    • M&I - Nicole says

      Yes this part-time program can potentially help. LSE has a great name and I think it will help you out quite a lot. I think MF can give you the opportunity to take on a part-time role in finance which maybe beneficial to you. No, I don’t think you’ll be considered as old.

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