From Boutique to Middle-Market to Bulge Bracket: Got Rankings?
“Can you please rank the banks?!! Please! Just this once, rank the banks!!!”
“If I buy you bottle service, will you rank the banks? It’s on me, really!”
No, no, and no. Ranking anything is my least favorite topic in the world – possibly because I spent the first 20 years of my life attempting to out-rank people to get into more prestigious schools and activities.
But I will acknowledge the differences between different types of banks, and that it’s more complex than the previous discussions of boutiques vs. bulge brackets.
If you’re looking for rankings, you should press Alt + F4 right now and end your suffering.
But otherwise, read on and learn all about different types of banks, from tiny boutique to bulge bracket and everything in between – and where you should work.
Definitions
Defining the types of banks is more difficult than you’d think, because not everyone agrees on how certain firms should be categorized.
I’m going to outline below how I see it and how most readers here see it, but keep in mind that there’s overlap in certain categories and that no one agrees 100% on everything.
The 3 main categories are boutique, middle-market, and bulge bracket - but even within those there are a few divisions, as we’ll see below.
“Boutique”
“Boutique” refers to a “small bank,” where “small” could mean anything from “fewer than 10,000 employees” to “fewer than 10 employees.”
But using size to classify banks presents issues, because there are no strict cut-offs and some “boutiques” actually have quite substantial headcounts.
Rather than classifying banks according to headcount, you should think about the following 3 criteria instead:
- Deals: What types of deals do they do? Are they small (< $100 million USD)? Large (> $1 billion USD)? Somewhere in between?
- Geography: Do they only have a presence in one city or region? Are they global? Strong domestically but not internationally?
- Services Provided: Do they only advise on M&A deals? Or do they also help companies issue equity and debt?
So that is how we’ll examine and categorize the different types of banks.
This is important because the “boutique” category should be split into two categories: regional boutiques and “elite” boutiques. And that split has more to do with the 3 criteria above rather than a simple question of headcount.
Regional Boutique Banks
Regional boutiques are the smallest of investment banks, and might have anywhere from one person – the Founder – to a few dozen or more.
As the name implies, regional boutiques operate in one city or region: think of a small 10-person team that advises on tech deals in San Francisco but has no offices elsewhere, or a 5-person team that works on energy M&A deals in Houston (I was tempted to insert a reference about equities in Dallas there but avoided it for now).
Here’s how they stack up on the 3 main criteria:
- Deals: Generally they work on small deals – under $100 million USD, and often under $50 million USD.
- Geography: Limited to one city or region; a few of the bigger ones might be in several cities, but if the bank has a global presence it’s no longer a regional boutique.
- Services Provided: Most regional boutiques focus on M&A advisory and don’t provide other services such as ECM or DCM; there are some exceptions and a few boutiques focus on ECM, DCM, or Restructuring rather than M&A, but that is not the norm.
There are thousands of regional boutiques out there if you consider every country, so I’m not going to list examples here – if you know something about the finance industry and you haven’t heard of a bank before, chances are that it’s a regional boutique.
“Elite Boutique” Banks
Whereas regional boutiques focus on smaller deals, operate in only 1 city or region, and maintain lower headcounts, the “elite boutiques” differ across all of those:
- Deals: They work on deals that are comparable in size to what bulge bracket banks do – often over $1 billion USD. Occasionally they will go lower, but the deal size is far bigger than the average for regional boutiques.
- Geography: With a few exceptions, “elite boutiques” have much more of a national and international presence than regional boutiques. Lazard, for example, has over 40 offices across 5 continents.
- Services Provided: This is one area where regional boutiques and elite boutiques are similar: both types of boutiques tend to focus on M&A advisory. There are some exceptions – going back to the Lazard example, they actually provide asset management services in addition to M&A and Restructuring and even do the occasional financing.
Elite boutiques also tend to have more people than regional boutiques, which makes sense because they operate in more cities.
How do you make the jump from “regional” to “elite?”
You have to start the firm, keep at it, develop a reputation, and then spend years or decades working on bigger and more significant deals until you join the ranks of the “elite.”
Sometimes a boutique can go from new and unknown to “elite” very quickly – two examples are Qatalyst Partners, founded by Frank Quattrone, and Moelis & Co., founded by Ken Moelis of UBS LA fame.
Those firms achieved “elite” status very quickly based on the reputation of their founders, and by advising on a number of high-profile deals.
But when you go to start your own boutique bank, don’t expect similar results unless you’re even more of a baller than Quattrone and Moelis.
Example Elite Boutiques: Evercore, Greenhill, Lazard, Qatalyst Partners, Moelis & Co.
Before you leave an angry comment wondering why I didn’t list your firm here as well, this is not an all-inclusive list.
There are other elite boutiques as well, but I just wanted to give a few quick examples of both more established and newer firms that fall into this category.
Middle-Market Banks
To the layperson, middle-market banks are “bigger” than boutiques but “smaller” than bulge bracket banks – which isn’t wrong, necessarily, but also doesn’t tell the full story.
Here’s how to think about it:
- Deals: The deals they work on are in between what you see at regional boutiques and bulge brackets or elite boutiques – a larger deal at a middle-market bank might be around $500MM USD, whereas a smaller one might be about $50MM USD.
- Geography: Middle-market banks are also in the middle in terms of geography (noticing a pattern yet?): they operate in many cities, but are not as global as bulge bracket banks. Often they have a strong presence domestically, but aren’t quite as strong internationally.
- Services Provided: Unlike boutiques, middle-market banks provide the full range of services: M&A advisory, ECM, DCM, Restructuring, and other variations on those. They advise on buying and selling companies and provide the financing to make it happen.
Some middle-market banks focus on a particular industry; for example, KBW focuses on Financial Institutions (FIG), Cowen is known for healthcare investment banking, and Houlihan Lokey has a top Restructuring practice.
The same also applies to many regional boutiques, but the deals they advise on are much smaller so they rarely become “famous” for a certain industry or deal type.
Example Middle-Market Banks: Piper Jaffray, Cowen, Jefferies, Houlihan Lokey, KBW, William Blair & Company.
And yes, there are other middle-market banks as well – these are just a few examples that I randomly thought of, so please refrain from leaving an angry comment and wondering why your bank isn’t on this list.
Bulge Bracket Banks
The king of the jungle. The top of the ladder. First class…
Maybe.
Back in the day, bulge bracket banks like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley had the best reputation on Wall Street – but post-financial crisis that has changed, and plenty of people take offers at elite boutiques over bulge bracket banks.
Bulge bracket banks are “the biggest” in terms of headcount, but let’s look at the other criteria as well:
- Deals: They work on the biggest deals – usually they’re worth over $1 billion USD, though they may occasionally go down to deals in the $200MM – $300MM USD range depending on the group and the economy.
- Geography: They’re global and have a presence in cities across all continents, except for Antarctica (penguins don’t appreciate advice on M&A deals).
- Services Provided: Just like middle-market banks, the bulge bracket banks provide both advisory and financing services – and everything else: asset management, trading, commercial banking, insurance, and so on.
The bulge bracket landscape changes due to M&A activity, financial crises, new regulation, and so on, but it takes a very long time for a bank to “become” a bulge bracket with tens or hundreds of thousands of employees.
So don’t start your own 10-person firm and expect to have your name on a 100-floor building anytime soon.
Example Bulge Bracket Banks: Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Barclays, Citi, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, UBS.
You could arguably add a few others to this list, but this is probably the most widely agreed upon set out of all the categories above.
Other Variations
Besides the categories above, there are a few bank types to be aware of:
Merchant Banks
These are combined private equity firms and investment banks: they might take a percentage ownership in companies they work with, which can create conflicts of interest and other “interesting” scenarios.
Over time the line between merchant banks and investment banks has blurred significantly, because many banks have internal private equity divisions that invest in companies as well.
Merchant banks focus more on smaller companies and “creative” types of financing – so you can think of them as combined boutique / middle-market banks and PE firms.
Merchant banks – or “combined IB and PE firms” – can be more common in rapidly growing economies like China. There, normally risk-averse banks actually want to invest in companies they advise since the upside potential is so high when everyone is growing at 100% per year.
More on investment banking vs. merchant banking.
“Captive KPOs” and 3rd Party KPOs
You see another variation on traditional banks in India, where “knowledge process outsourcing” firms (a nice way of saying “companies that do grunt work crunching numbers and creating pitch books”) do business with a lot of banks, either internally (“Captive KPOs”) or with external clients (3rd Party KPOs).
This matters in India because most jobs are actually at these KPO firms, which keeps the size of deal teams – even at large banks – relatively small.
Occasionally you do see similar firms in other countries, but they’re definitely the most common in India.
Combined Bank / Consulting / Other Firms
Then there are also firms that do a combination of management consulting, investment banking, and possibly other services.
There’s one example from a reader’s story right here and you can find others if you browse around.
I’m not a huge fan of hybrid firms like this for the long-term, because it’s better to focus on one area and get really good at what you do there.
But if you’re breaking in from a non-traditional background or you have some skill or experience that matches what they’re looking for, go for it.
Internal Banks at Big 4 Firms
Remember that all the Big 4 firms also do valuation and M&A advisory work, and they pretty much all have internal banks that work on deals.
While the culture and hours are quite a bit different (in some cases and regions), these can be a good starting point for you if you accidentally ended up in accounting or audit and need an exit into greener pastures.
Most of these internal banks would fall into the boutique / middle-market bank categories above: advisory is not the core focus of Big 4 firms, so they tend to work on smaller deals and do mostly M&A and Restructuring advisory.
So, What Would You Say You… Actually Do Here?
Despite all the hoopla over which bank is “the best,” the work you do at all these places is not that much different.
The main difference is that you’ll get more random tasks and a less structured experience at regional boutiques – but beyond that, the day-to-day differences in work at elite boutiques, middle-market firms, and bulge bracket banks are greatly exaggerated.
Bigger deals can be good to talk about in interviews, but just because a deal is bigger doesn’t mean you’ll learn more by working on it: you learn the most when you’re given the most responsibility and when you’re exposed to more unusual scenarios.
Similarly, the hours are not that much different and if you pick a smaller bank because you think you’ll work less, you should quit the finance industry right now.
The hours are unpredictable anywhere, and any improvement in work-life balance at a smaller bank is more than compensated for by lower bonuses (see below).
You do tend to learn more on the technical side at bulge bracket banks and elite boutiques because the companies are bigger and can actually have meaningful projections.
But that’s not always the case and I’ve seen plenty of friends at bulge bracket banks barely do any modeling work – your exposure is far more random than anyone likes to acknowledge.
Salaries & Bonuses
These are fairly standard across middle-market banks, elite boutiques, and bulge bracket banks. You see more variations with regional boutiques, where bonuses there tend to be significantly lower.
You might expect 50% of the bonus that you’d receive at a bulge bracket if you’re at a regional boutique – there’s not as much money to go around because advisory fees are lower, and if the firm doesn’t close any deals or has a bad year, it’s difficult to justify a solid bonus (or even any bonus at all at the senior levels).
Base salaries aren’t that much different since the general formula there is, “We’ll pay you enough to live on, but not enough to go out every night or take exotic vacations. You can wait until the end of the year for bottles – if we have a good year.”
Exit Opps
Here, elite boutiques and bulge bracket banks are on roughly the same level, with middle-market banks below them, and regional boutiques below the middle-market banks.
There, I finally did it: I ranked the banks (sort of).
If you’re at a bulge bracket or elite boutique, you have a shot at mega-funds and/or bigger mid-sized funds, whereas your options decrease as the size of your firm decreases.
That’s mostly because headhunters focus on what has worked in the past: they get so many qualified candidates from huge banks that they have little motivation to go out and find analysts at smaller places.
It has little, if anything, to do with your ability and is 100% about not rocking the boat too much.
If you’re at a regional boutique or middle-market firm, you’ll have to be significantly more proactive when looking for exit opportunities: you should be doing that even if you’re at a large bank, but it’s super-important at smaller places so that you always have a “Plan B” option.
The actual types of firms you might go to afterward – beyond the size – depend on the group you worked in and what industries you focused more on than anything else.
Which One Should You Work At?
This one’s easy: if you have multiple offers, take the one at the most well-known bank – especially when you’re first starting out. That’s the safest bet and gives you the most options afterward, whether you want to stay in finance, become a traveling bard, or start your own surf shop in Brazil.
It gets more difficult to answer when your offers are comparable, but we’ve already been through that one before - how to decide on investment banking offers.
That advice optimistically assumes that you have many options and can pick whichever firm you want – if that’s not the case, make sure you read up on what to do with no summer internship offers, no full-time offers, and even no return offer.
And if worse comes to worse, be like your Facebook relationship status (back in the day, before they removed the fun options) and take whatever you can get.
More on Boutiques vs. Bulge Brackets (and Others)
- Boutiques vs. Bulge Brackets (M&I Newsletter)
- Boutique Investment Banks vs. Bulge Bracket Investment Banks
- Boutiques vs. Bulge Brackets, Round 2: Underdog Victory?
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Wow.. I have to say, pretty astonishing timing.. I have a difficult situation here, one that somewhat relates to this topic.
First off, after going to a non-target school, and suffering through a ton of interviews/non-offers this summer, I ended up getting a temporary offer with one of these two well-known BB (MS/JPM) through a headhunter. The position is for compliance (ugh) but I figured after the time was up, if I could impress the right people I may be able to work my way into where I wanted to be. Difficult/Impossible I know, but I figured that having a solid name like that on my resume, it could help out.
This was a couple of weeks ago, and I have pretty much accepted this role — I’m slated to start early next week. Today, I got a call for an interview with a company close to my house in upstate NY, for a FT position, better pay, and better job all around with a boutique firm. I obviously agreed to go on the interview tomorrow morning– but here is the problem.
If I am supposed to start next week for BB compliance, I have two options. I could:
1) Go into tomorrow’s interview, let them know I have an offer, and tell them I need an answer by the end of the day and hope for the best.
–OR–
2) Go into tomorrow’s interview, let them know I have an offer, then wait on their response while I go work for the BB temp job. If I get the job back upstate, then I guess I would quit and accept the offer.
What is worse here: Quitting a temp job and undoubtedly burning a bridge with a headhunter/BB in the process, or, setting a deadline on an interview and potentially eliminating me right away if they don’t want to move quickly.
I know I want the newer job now, and it is the better career move, but I am unsure as to how to approach this situation. Any advice for someone who’s head is spinning lol?
#1 is better and if they really want you they will respond quickly. No one would eliminate you because they don’t want to move quickly, they might just say they can’t move that quickly in which case you can just do #2.
Would this bank fall under elite or regional boutique?
http://www.edgeview.com/
I would actually say that’s middle-market based on the site and description.
Couldn’t resist the obvious joke: bootleg Centerview Partners?
I would say that you missed the category of industry-focused boutiques. Examples include Dahlman Rose (for natural resources and shipping), Jordan Edmiston (for media and marketing), Waller (cable), Simmons (energy) and others. I work for one (not one of those that I listed). It’s tiny, but we end up having clients all over the world due to the nature of the industry we focus on. Our business tends to be a mix of M&A, private placements and consulting work.
That’s a good point, but those are sort of a hybrid of the two boutique categories above. Some are certainly famous but it varies by industry/region.
Whats your next BIWS lesson going to be on?
More additions to FIG (merger model and LBO model and insurance) but delayed there due to other commitments (and yes I realize the irony of saying I’m too busy despite responding to your comment in minutes here). Aiming to finish the merger and LBO model by end of August and insurance by end of September.
Not sure why you consistently miss this, but Centerview Partners should absolutely be listed as an elite boutique (see transactions below):
http://www.centerviewpartners.com/list.aspx?xitm=2&yitm=3
“Before you leave an angry comment wondering why I didn’t list your firm here as well, this is not an all-inclusive list.
There are other elite boutiques as well, but I just wanted to give a few quick examples of both more established and newer firms that fall into this category.”
Attention to detail (but yes I agree with you it should be in the list, I blame sleep deprivation).
What Needham & Co be considered a regional or MM?
I would say MM since it provides more than just M&A advisory and it’s also fairly well-known despite being smaller.
Thanks Brian,
That clarifies a lot. I would like to add another point. I know a few banks in India who have presence in USA as well. However they are still regional boutiques since the deal size is very small, there are strategy focused transactiosn (like joint ventures) & banking team is located just in a city in India (they have associate offices in USA). I believe these are regional boutiques despite having multiple regional presence. Since capital markets are not well developed in India, most of the banks will fall into your definition of regional boutiqes
That’s a good point – there are a few larger banks in India as well but you’re right that they fall more into the “regional boutique” side of the spectrum.
It would be very kind of you if you give me the names of those regional boutiques in India. Plz Gaurav
Hi,
Indeed a very helpful article. Just a small query..
Where will you slot Rothschild (Europe)? Would it be considered as an elite boutique? I will soon be starting with them after forgoing an offer from a BB (CS/BAML/UBS). I absolutely liked the work-environment at Rothschild.
However, do you think I still have a chance at the Holy Grail (read Blackstone, KKR, TPG, Carlyle)?
Thanks.
In Europe, I would say Rothschild is an elite boutique. I don’t think it has as strong a reputation elsewhere so that one might depend on the region a bit.
As far as getting into the mega-funds, if you’re in Europe and you work there you probably have a shot but may still have to network more since recruiters do still spend a lot of time on the BBs.
I always thought MM and BB’s and the rest of the tiers were classified based on different regions still. Ie. RBC/BMO/TD, etc are considered BB in Canada, but MM in the US. Are they not ranked like that either?
In whichever case, curious as to what tier would you place HSBC IB’s team as in? BB/MM/or Boutique? Is there a difference if it’s the team in US or Canada?
That’s a really good point as well – for the Canadian banks you mentioned they definitely have less of a presence in the US so probably fall more into the MM category.
HSBC – that one is sort of borderline because technically they are big so might be considered BB but it’s somewhat region-dependent and in the US you tend not to see them on as many large deals; stronger in other regions.
I always perceived Lazard as a MM firm,like Jeffries.I think it offers other services (market making etc) as well.
Also,correct me if I am wrong,butthe asset management part of Lazard has spinned-off and is a different company..
Sal: Lazard basically invented M&A and are largely considered head-and-shoulders above the rest of the “elite boutique” field (which I do think is the right way to classify things).
My cousin worked there two years ago and I recall that most of the folks he ended up working with had turned down offers from GS and MS (and Rothschild, which is actually probably on par with Lazard in Europe) in order to work at Lazard. Almost no one he worked with had even interviewed w/ Jefferies, Piper, etc. It’s just a different world. Jefferies is basically a low-end / anyone-with-a-heartbeat-can-work-here bank (kind of like the middle-market version of Bank of America and Citi).
What Lee said. Technically asset management is a spin-off but it still uses the Lazard name. And they have an excellent reputation, though interestingly they are not as strong in Asia as they are in Europe / US.
So I looked this up and here’s a clarification:
Lazard Asset Management is part of the same firm as Lazard proper (i.e., investment banking). There’s a chinese wall separating them because one is buyside (LAM, which is like Wellington, Dodge&Cox, etc. and any other asset management firm) and the other is sell-side (banking / restructuring). LAM actually makes up something like half of Lazard’s overall revenue.
Lazard Capital Markets is a distinct entity that was spun out of the main firm at the time of Lazard’s IPO. Here’s how they describe themselves:
“Lazard Capital Markets provides research, sales & trading, and underwriting in the areas of equity, fixed income and convertible securities. As a separate entity, Lazard Capital Markets maintains a business alliance agreement with Lazard Group for the continuation of certain historical relationships. Pursuant to such business alliance, our clients are offered tailored advice, strategies and solutions to corporations and governments worldwide to facilitate their access to public and private capital.”
Definitely confusing.
For clarity’s sake, not the same Lee. I guess I know why you white people can’t really tell us apart.
Lazard is actually getting quite strong in Asia, climbing their way up the league tables. Their office in Hong Kong is still (understandably) a lot smaller than their BB counterparts’, but they are growing and pulling in people from other places. Just last month they stole an MD from Cowen & Co to head up their ECM department.
I am probably the most Asian white person in existence so I do a decent job of telling you apart, but yeah point taken.
Lazard is getting stronger in Asia but they are still behind there vs. US/Europe – a few friends actually left Lazard Asia offices last year to get more deal exposure.
Actually Lazard kinda sucks lately. I guess they aren’t that good but are still decent.
Hey I think I found one of those deaded combined i-bank/consulting firms…what do you think? Looks like the banking arm is operated separately. Would this be a decent place for one’s analyst years?
http://fminet.com/
*dreaded
I am not a huge fan of these places, but that one looks credible based on recent transactions. It’s not that they’re bad to work at, but if you have other options I would recommend those instead.
AAAh haha you finally caved in Brian. Thanks for doing this. It’s really helpful. so why did you never want to rank the banks in the first place? I forgot.
Oh ok saw it in the beginning of the article.
Because it reminds of being in high school and people ranking colleges, which in turn makes me want to jump off a cliff
Great article Brian. I currently work at MSSB as an FA, and have an MBA from a non-target school. Will this position help or hinder my pursuit to become an investment banker. If so or if not, what can I do to improve my chances? Thanks
This position should help depending on the work you actually do. Pick up modeling skills, understanding how banks pitch and network with bankers. MSSB is a good name on your resume.
so what do you do after working at a regional boutique? lateraling to a MM (for example Houlihan) is easier said than done and you probably wont be able to get into any decent sized PE shop
Move up there, go to another boutique, move into corp dev, or attempt to make the lateral move. And you can still do PE just need to work a lot more for it.
Thanks for the great article! I was wondering, at a boutique, is is possible to turn a marketing internship into an investment banking internship after? Or would my time better be spent working at another smaller boutique but as an investment banking intern?
Time is better spent as an IB intern, tough to turn marketing into IB.
Great article!
With BNP Paribas being one of the largest banks in the world (based on market cap), in what category would you place them? Their investment banking division is pretty large in Europe (not sure about the US).
Thank you.
They were one of the borderline ones for bulge bracket. In Europe I would say bulge bracket but elsewhere in the world they’re not as strong so that’s a regional difference, similar to some of the others discussed above.
Morgan Keegan? Regional, MM, Boutique? Worth the time?
Would say middle market. Worth it if that’s your best offer and people do know the name.
What is Macquarie considered? They work on big deals too, especially in infrastructure where deals can exceed $1bn sometimes
Some people would say bulge bracket but I would say middle market in most regions, though there are some exceptions like Australia where they are arguably bulge bracket and in certain industries like infrastructure.
Just a question about other “middle-market banks” – where would you put the full-service banks that are on the large side, yet don’t get to sit in the pool with the BB boys? I note that most of the examples you listed under MM banks are pure IB houses, and not (commercial) banks.
For example, what about places like HSBC, Standard Chartered, RBS and the like?
I would say most of those are still middle market if you look at the deal sizes. It really comes down to the deals they work on and if they’re not as big as bulge brackets’ they shouldn’t be classified that way. Although I’m sure someone will now argue that HSBC should be bulge bracket…
Thanks Brian!
This one is a wonderful article! I am a finance graduate from Delhi University and working with a Big 4 firm, in its audit practices. I tried my hand at networking for 6 months, but could not get ahead than one interview with a M & A advisory with a Big 4, which told me (after clearing 4 interviews), that they could not take me as I was not based in Mumbai, and with the $350 a month they pay to Analysts, I won’t be able to make a living, until I live with my family in Mumbai.
So I started working in audit 2 weeks back. I am 21. So I am still networking :) And I am thinking of doing an MBA two years down the line and then trying to get int I-Banking, my dream :)
One more thing. Do you think it would make more sense if I would quit my audit analyst job here ( I work with UK Clients, ‘Department Extension’ of the London office, and have an opportunity to go to London and do ACA, i.e. Chartered Accountancy there. all sponsored by them) ..to a KPO here, which has a M & A department ( Precisely, its KPMG and Evalueserve)
My end-goal is Investment Banking. What would make more sense Brian? To remain here at KPMG and go after 1 n a half years to the UK, do my Chartered Accountancy and then shift to Transaction Services there (which will take atleast 5 years), or work for a few months at KPMG, move to Evalueserve, the KPO which has an M & A department and then prepare for my MBA.
Lastly, i am a huge fan of this space! I absolutely love everything that is written here.
I am waiting for the episodes too :)
And yea, thanks a lot, because there are times when I lose hope, and M & I is what gets me back to chasing my dreams :)
Most people seem to think KPO –> IB is quite difficult (based on responses to the IB India interview). So I would actually follow your first suggested plan there. Glad you like the site!
Brian, you mean, shifting to the UK and doing Chartered Accountancy, and then making a leap to IBD, 5 years from now, is better?
Akshay, you have to make the decision yourself. The banks are looking for people with modeling skills and knowledge of how to value companies. If you can gain such knowledge, network w bankers, land the interviews and pitch to the interviewers, you’re set.
Hi Brian, I am networking for internship next summer. When do you think is a good time to call bankers? Many thanks.
Ideally start in August and meet with bankers throughout the fall in advance of recruiting in the winter
Can you please compare GS, Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan in terms reputation, company’s and individual’s growth potential, exit opportunities for IB associates in technology sectors. Please don’t say they are very much the same.
Didn’t you see the part about me not ranking anything? I don’t follow them closely enough to give a useful answer there.
Hey Brian,
I have subscribed to couple of your courses at the moment. Question I have for you is that the Operating model (Apple) in your basic accounting course; is that a good example of an actual operating model used in Investment Banking / Capital Markets. I believe if you are a research guy, you will probably go into much more detailed operating model. However, for IB, is your version of Apple Operating model in the course a good enough comparision to the actual Operating model used at a Bank ? Please let me know. Thanks!
Frank,
Thanks for your inquiry. For your future reference, if you are a customer please contact us through the BIWS contact form: http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/contact
Nicole and I attempt to respond to comments here when possible but we prioritize BIWS since being a member indicates that you are a customer.
Yes, in research in real life you may go into more detail but for purposes of interviews that model is fine. There are more detailed operating models in the Advanced, Real Estate, Oil & Gas, and FIG courses.
Thanks Brian. Have posted a question on the link above couple hours ago. Hopefully you get a chance to reply soon.
Rgds
I didn’t see any emails or comments from someone with your name or email, but we have been replying to everything. Not sure if you sent it under a different name but you can either leave a comment on the site or go through the form again if it did not go through.
Brian – I posted a couple questions under BIWS but they haven’t got answered since couple days ago. Not too sure whether you missed it or not, but it’s about an internship I have coming up and preparation – if you don’t mind, could you go there and reply it? Maybe you’re on vacation I’m guessing… but funny how stuff over here still gets replied.thanks
Connor,
I just looked through all the questions and there are only a few recent ones from the past 12 hours or so that have not received responses. I believe Peter already responded to the ones you asked, judging from the time stamps (assuming you are referring to: http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/34-01/ http://breakingintowallstreet.com/biws/33-02/) But if that’s not the case, let me know what you were referring to.
We try to reply within 24 hours but sometimes it may take longer if you leave a question over the weekend or late on a Friday night, for example.
Thanks Brian – just weird how I didn’t get a notification through email. Anyhow, I’ve checked it on the website now, so thanks for that.
Awesome article…
but not as awesome as penguins.
;-)
The penguins are coming…
You might even be able to write them into your PE soap opera…lol…
Where would you place Nomura Securities and Wells Fargo Securities?
This is subjective. I’d place them in b/ BB and mid market because they are climbing up the ladder, they are gaining business, but they aren’t quite there w GS, MS, UBS etc in terms of reputation and the size of deals they do. I wouldn’t place them under mid market because they might be a bit too big for that, nor would I place them as elite boutiques because they are also too big for that and they are still not considered “top-tier” banks by many
Hi Brian,
I’m a rising 3rd year at a target school. I did a banking internship this summer, but it is pretty much the only work experience I’ve had. Should I try to get a school year banking internship this semester (but my course schedule is pretty intense and there are lots of info sessions to attend too). What do you think I should do to make my work experience section look better on my resume? Thanks a lot
You’re on track. Try to get a summer internship next year in a division you are interested in in the meantime. Do attend the info/networking session – they’re helpful. If you’re schedule is intense I wouldn’t suggest getting a school year internship unless the internship experience is very valuable (if you’re going to be stuck behind a PC doing admin work where you’re barely learning, I’d focus on my grades instead). However, if you can land a good internship, I’d try to balance the three – you can do it, good training for IB :)
One of the alumni is invited to a breakfast with us next week. Do I need to email him beforehand, or should I just wait till that day and then follow up? Thanks
Not sure I understand the question but I would just meet him that day, get his information there, and then follow-up.
Do you have any information/insight into the boutique firm Brookwood? If you could provide any insight on this smaller firm it would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Jeff, I personally don’t have any contacts who work there so I can’t provide you insights on this firm. However, I just went to their website http://www.brookwoodassociates.com/our-services.html — their firm is small so I would suggest you to email the team members and try to grab coffee w one of them
Hi Brian/M&I,
You said that the younger you are the easier it is to get into Investment Banking/M&A. However, I reached out to an alumni and he said that Middle Market M&A intermediary is for older people because the most significant skill set is convincing business owners to have you represent them in the transaction. He said because these Business owners are around 55-75 years old, therefore they have less confidence in a much younger person.
So he suggested I stay with my Bulge-Bracket employer and try to transfer to their M&A area (because the M&A BB is mostly about deal structuring and valuation) or try to go into private equity and work on the buyer’s side of the M&A process.
You said it’s easier to get hired by a Boutique/Middle Market than a BB.
Younger you are, easier to get an IB/M&A analyst position at a BB
Actually, Brian did not say that its easier to get hired by a B/MM than a BB; he said its harder to break into a boutique – pls refer to http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/no-boutique-investment-bank-hire/
Hi M&I,
Thanks for the great article, I just wanted to know more about MM bonuses in coming years. I have a few FT opportunities: SunTrust in ATL, Raymond James in Tampa/St. Pete, and RW Baird in Tampa. Any advice with bonus ranges? I’ve done research on wallstreetoasis.com and have seen everything from $10k to $50k which seems to broad to be accurate. I understand the firms don’t directly compare, but was hoping to get some more insight beyond your “World is Less Flat?” article.
Thanks in advance,
Daniel
Hi Daniel, the ranges are broadly accurate but the bonuses really depend on the market conditions, how your business is doing as well as how generous your boss is so I can’t give you an exact number/estimate. Hope this helps!
Hi Brian, this is a regional right? http://www.sealeassociates.com/
Worth?
a/c to their website under “contact us” yes
quick list of TOP middle market firms a non target should apply to?
I don’t have a list of top middle market IBs but you can look at firms like http://www.rwbaird.com/ci/investment-banking/investment-bankinga.aspx
What would this firm be classified as?
http://www.plethorabusinesses.com/
Not quite sure either. Perhaps readers hv other thoughts
M&I, I think surely you need a full category for 2nd-tier large commercial banks? The likes of BNP Paribas, SocGen, RBS and so on are not really “middle market”, but obviously not BB either. In their own locales they tend to be big – no French deal will be done without one of the first two for instance; moreover the important thing is that their pay will be comparable to the BBs and elite boutiques, as they constantly strive to catch up.
I believe HSBC would belong to this category, whereas Barcap and to some extent Nomura have moved up in recent years – though where to is anyone’s guess. Another hybrid would surely be Macquarie.
I think globally the “elite boutiques” are really headed by Lazard and Rothshcild, with the leaner Evercore probably the most likely to join that pair. Greenhill and others do not have the scale to join them as yet.
I also agree with one comment that a separation between those boutiques based purely on region, and those based purely on sector, would be useful. Additionally those who offer full capital markets products are different to advisory houses – how do you classify Greenhill?
Moelis is also an elite boutique I’d say. I’d classify Greenhill as an advisory house. They don’t offer capital markets service.
If I’m trying to get into a specialized area such as Oil and Gas, what firms should I be looking at? Most of the big banks have a presence in Houston, but I’ve been told that some of the banks leave the “fun stuff” (M&A work for example) to the team in New York or London. Can you comment on this and your preferred route for going from Business School to Investment Banking to Private Equity within the Oil and Gas industry.
You might want to look at PE firms specializing in this area. I think http://www.ogfj.com/capital/private-equity.html can give you recent news on the industry
Preferred route? What you listed is fine though I don’t think bschool helps that much other than getting you into a BB IB (assuming you don’t have IB experience before).
Nicole,
Thanks for the help. Interesting you should mention OGFJ as I just started a subscription about a month ago. They had a very intriguing article about KKR’s growing interest in O&G. If possible, I would love to “circumvent” IB and go straight to PE. I do have a business school alumni contact at Quantum Energy partners. How would you play this if you were in my position knowing that I don’t have any IB experience? I have an undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering with a focus on the Oil and Gas industry. However, when I graduated there were very few opportunities that didn’t involve going to some hellhole in the desert. As such, I went from technology startups to launching my own healthcare company that my partner and I sold to a national player. Then I started business school with the intention of building a “bridge” to either IB or PE in O&G. Sorry for the data dump, but I thought the info. might be beneficial in formulating your response.
I think you can tell him the story above. Focus on your knowledge and interest in O&G sectors & your interest in PE (Why PE?). Its hard for me to advise you on how to spin your story on the comments page!
What are some things to bring up in an interview? That I’m passionate about working for a bulge bracket? All my past internships have been at unknown boutiques. What can I sell them on besides that I want to work on larger more exciting deals? I also want to mention that I’ll have a better learning experience due to the structure of their programs. Anything else I’m missing?
Knowing how to pitch your story is the most important
Talk about some of the interesting deals you have done & how you made an impact
Why BB? Yes tell them you are more interested in large scale transactions and demonstrate that you fit in w that bank’s culture
Thanks great advice. Also the deals I worked on through my internship were more the marketing side i.e. pitchbooks, and CIM’s. If they ask me what I did for the valuation behind these deals is it fine just to tell them that while I was there I didn’t have exposure to it? And my understanding of the bigger banks culture is that they just like people who are going to work hard and learn quick on the job.
Please see my previous comment and only post a question once on our site
Thanks great advice. Also the deals I worked on through my internship were more the marketing side i.e. pitchbooks, and CIM’s. If they ask me what I did for the valuation behind these deals is it fine just to tell them that while I was there I didn’t have exposure to it? And my understanding of the bigger banks culture is that they just like people who are going to work really hard and are quick learners.
Yes, because I wouldn’t suggest you to BS your way around if you haven’t modeled (they will find out)
Yes, your understanding is accurate
Hi Brain,
Again thanks for such lovely Articles.
I am recently Qualified ACCA (optional Paper P4-Advance Financial Management includes: Valuation, option, M&A, Restructuring, Hedging) with over 10 years of Experience Accounts & Finance.
I am looking to break in IB but not sure which position (analyst) and organisation(size)shall I target?
Regards
Neeraj
You might be a bit too senior for IB analyst roles. Are you only targeting front office roles? How about the Accounting division within an IB? You can also try second/third tier firms if you don’t have prior IB experience and network in the industry
Thanks Nicole,
Yes, I am targeting for front office role where I can really contribute and add value to the organisation. Neither I have any IB experience nor any direct contacts and that makes my position worst.
Really don’t know where I stand in IB with my passed accounts and finance experience and which position I must target!
Once again thanks for your help.
Kind Regards
Neeraj
That might be tough unless you have a strong network. I’d suggest you to broaden your search to other FI roles
hi brian/nicole,
imagine that you are the hiring manager at a MM investment bank and you are looking to hire someone for a full-time position role in S&T.
Candidate 1 – with prior internship experience in IT in a BB (thought it is quite “bankified” on the resume)
Candidate 2 – with prior internship in S&T in another MM investment bank
who would you pick? would the brand name of a BB trump the relevant experience in a MM investment bank?
thanks so much in advance.
andre
Hmm probably Candidate #2 due to the S&T experience.
Hey, I was just wondering if you know much about the middle market IB, Canaccord Genuity? How are they generally perceived by other MM banks, Boutiques or even BBs? Thanks in advance.
I haven’t really heard of them. Don’t think they’re renowned globally though I may be wrong
Where would the Investment Banking division within the Big 4 accounting firms fall?
Are you talking about TAS: http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GX/global/services/financial-advisory/m-and-a-transaction-services/index.htm
Dear M&I,
How would your IB Analyst/Associate experience differ between banks with high deal flow and those with less (e.g. Goldman vs. BNP Paribas)? Do you learn as much in the second case?
In addition, does it make sense (in the long run) to get an MBA to move to a busier bank (say from middle-market to a bulge-bracket) or is it a risk?
Thanks.
You won’t learn as much if deal flow is weaker, but that may or may not be a problem depending on the group.
Would not get an MBA just to move to a busier bank – you can make the move via networking / headhunters.
What would be better, an investment banking internship in New York with a boutique ibank, an internship in global custody services at a middle market firm in Boston (5,000 employees, $1.3 billion in revenue in 2012 to give you an idea), or an investment banking internship at a middle market firm in Philadelphia (10% chance it is in NYC)? I would appreciate any advice, having extreme difficulty making a decision. I am a college junior.
Congratulations!
I’d choose the IB internship in NY because (1) location – NY is hard to beat especially given opportunity to network (2) IB – if you want to break into IB I’d choose the IB role (3) You may be able to assume lots of responsibility and learn a lot from a boutique
Hey brian,
In your opinion why you would prefer to work on the M&A department of a firm where the deals are all from middle market firms rather than advising Microsoft´s Yahoo acquisition?
Thank you very much for your time,
Julio
You get more exposure to varied deals and scenarios, maybe more industries, more contact with management teams, and a higher probability of at least a few deals actually closing.