All About the Back Office, Recovering from Networking Mistakes, and How to Find the Right Kind of Yerba Mate… and More Questions and Answers
Ok, so is the back office actually a 9-5 job? What about going to the back office vs. starting your own investment fund? What if you’ve made a horrible impression on alumni when networking – is there any way to recover?
Oh, and most importantly, what brand of yerba mate will allow you to pull all-nighters most easily?
Answers to all of those and more, below…
Options, Options, and More Options…
No, not those options. Rather, what are your options even if you think you have none?
1. I was planning to start my own investment fund this summer as part of my school’s organization – however, I was then notified that I got a back-office internship at a bulge bracket bank. What should I do?
If you don’t mind pulling all-nighters, try to do both and use whatever spare time you have outside the internship to work on your other project. If you don’t have time, save it for when you get back to school and just do it then. While a back-office internship is not ideal, having that name on your resume will help you quite a bit.
2. I’ve been in corporate development at a Fortune 500 company for a few years, and want to get into PE eventually. I’ve been waitlisted at the top business schools and have had no luck applying directly to top boutiques, bulge brackets, or PEs – what are my options?
Aim for lower than the top and apply to boutiques that focus on your industry – that’s all that would help you substantially. Also note that going to business school to get into private equity without previous banking or PE experience usually doesn’t work.
3. I’m working in bankruptcy law right now – if I wanted to apply to restructuring or turnaround firms, would I have a shot against all the bankers applying?
Yes, because Restructuring is the area of finance with the most amount of overlap with law. You need to learn the accounting and finance concepts decently beforehand, but if you want to get into finance that is your best option.
4. I just found out my full-time offer got deferred. I’ve thought about going to teach English in Asia before, but I’m not sure what the merits and drawbacks are – do you think it’s a good idea?
No, I have an extremely strong bias against teaching English in Asia. Unless you absolutely need the money I would avoid it – better ideas include: 1) Just plain traveling and doing a gap year. 2) Doing some type of study abroad, fellowship program, or volunteer work.
5. I’m picking my group for my full-time investment banking job. I’m thinking about going to FIG (Financial Institutions Group) because I worked there last summer – what do you think about that compared to other industry groups?
Assuming that your bank is advising on these bank mergers and acquisitions and is pretty active right now, it’s probably a good bet. I would double-check with full-time Analysts, but many of these groups are quite busy right now.
Note: FIG should not be confused with Financial Sponsors – the group that works with private equity firms acquiring companies – which has almost no activity right now.
All About the Back Office
Theoretically, you’re supposed to avoid the back office at all costs, but let’s face it – sometimes things just don’t work out. Just in case you were wondering, here’s what it’s like…
6. I’m starting a back-office internship soon – are the hours really 9-5? I don’t want the crazy investment banking lifestyle, but I might get bored in a support group.
It depends on what group you’re in specifically, but I would not expect 9-5. It’s more than 8 hours per day but not the 18-20 hours that bankers often have.
You should go to a “front-office” type role at a normal company rather than going to the back office – support groups are generally not good to be in, whether they’re at banks or other companies.
7. Is there any upside to moving up to the Associate or VP level in the back office?
No, not really. You do get paid more but the pay increases are substantially less than what bankers or traders would get. You also get more complacent as you move up and less likely to move into something better.
8. Would an MBA help me at all with a career in the back office?
I would be inclined to say “no” since they wouldn’t care one way or the other. For the pay increase it would get you, it’s not worth the investment (compared to career changers who get into investment banking or private using an MBA).
Got Network?
Questions continue to roll in on networking and related topics – like how to recover from mistakes, and whether or not it’s a good idea to show up in-person to visit companies and ask for jobs (fortune favors the bold!).
9. If I’m searching for boutiques online, is it better to cold-call MDs or Analysts when I see bankers’ contact information?
If you have everything you’re going to say 100% prepared and you won’t stumble or screw up, MDs are better to go to because they have more power and can immediately get you interviews. You may want to “practice” by cold-calling Analysts first to make sure you can give your 30-second pitch flawlessly.
10. Is it too late to cold-call for internships right now (May/June)?
No. In fact, one reader got a full-time offer very recently, and plenty of others have gotten internships lined up in recent months. Your “hit rate” will be lower, but if you target tiny firms it’s never too late to call because they often take on interns year-round.
11. I’m about to make a trip to New York – is it a good idea to tell companies that I’ll be there in-person and ask to meet with them, or to show up in-person and ask about jobs?
You should definitely tell companies you’ll be there and set up in-person informational interviews.
However, I wouldn’t just show up to random buildings and start asking for jobs. There is that story of one guy who did that at Morgan Stanley after he called 10 times to no avail, then showed up and demanded to speak with the MD, and then got an offer – but I think it’s just an urban legend.
12. If I’ve made a poor impression on an alumnus in my previous networking efforts, should I just give up or try to contact them once again now that I’ve improved?
This is sort of like trying to get back together with your ex after a violent breakup. If you screwed up once, let it go and move on – there are plenty of other people out there. Overcoming a poor first impression is very, very difficult unless the person has already forgotten about you.
13. I’m interning at a firm with one other intern – he worked here last summer, so he gets most of the “interesting” work. I’m worried that I may not have much to write about on my resume or to speak about in interviews – how can I fix this situation?
That’s almost always how it works in this situation. You should speak with someone else you know well, or maybe go to him directly and ask about it. It’s almost impossible to solve this kind of problem indirectly, so be direct but polite with your request. There’s no way they would “fire” an intern over bringing something like this to their attention, so don’t worry about that.
Interview Questions
Believe it or not, even though it’s June interviews are still taking place – here’s what to expect:
14. I’m interviewing for a middle-market / boutique firm right now – do you think the interview questions will be much different from those at a bulge bracket bank?
Unless the firm focuses on one specific industry or product, the questions will not be much different. Your background determines the kinds of questions you’ll get – someone who had banking internships, for example, will get mostly technical questions focused on their experience. But the size of the bank doesn’t change the actual questions you get much.
15. I’m about to interview for a Restructuring boutique as an Associate – what types of questions can I expect?
It’s completely dependent on your previous experience – if you did banking, you’ll get mostly questions about deals and clients. If you’re switching industries, you’ll get more on basic finance and accounting concepts and the usual “Why banking?” type questions.
It’s a good idea to know the basics of Distressed M&A and Restructuring (like the different types of bankruptcies, how valuation differs, typical adjustments you need to make), but I wouldn’t go crazy trying to learn every technical detail.
16. I’m working at an IPO boutique right now, but I want to move to an M&A firm – how can I best position my work in the interview process, since I have almost no modeling experience?
I wouldn’t try to pretend you have amazing technical skills, because they’ll see right through that (everyone knows IPOs are “modeling-lite”). Instead, I would emphasize your interactions with clients and due diligence work, because those apply no matter what kind of deal you’re working on.
You may also want to bring up what you’ve done outside work to enhance your technical skills, whether that’s independent study or training programs.
Save the Best Questions for Last…
No clever introduction, let’s just dive right in…
17. I noticed on your Twitter account that you left the US permanently on May 31 – will the site continue?
Well, you’re reading this right now, right?
18. You’ve never said what you actually do or what you’re doing next – are you looking for a full-time job?
In addition to this site, Breaking Into Wall Street, and some related projects (college admissions, business school admissions, trading), I’m also learning a few languages, doing some acting, and I’m thinking about starting a cocoa company with a friend – we developed a calorie-free cocoa mix that we want to market.
Note: As long-time readers know, I don’t make up anything written on this site.
19. I liked your recent interviews – can you do “on-the-record” interviews with people who successfully made it into banking?
No, because everyone is secretive and paranoid in this industry and never wants to share information unless it’s anonymous. I can interview friends who were formerly in the industry, but getting on-the-record interviews with current or upcoming bankers would be nearly impossible.
20. I tried your recommendation of yerba mate for a stimulant, but I fell asleep a few hours after drinking it – did I get the wrong version?
Probably. Make sure you get it imported directly from South America, and make sure it’s the loose leaf version (no, don’t worry, it doesn’t look like cocaine).
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Tags: all-nighters, cold-calling, follow-up, informational interviews, investment banking, investment banking interviews, MBA, Networking, private equity firms, understanding investment banking
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I’m scoring some yerba mate sent directly from my family in South America in the next few weeks! WOO!
But while it does not look like cocaine, it does resemble marijuana a bit.
That’s true, I completely forgot. They don’t have such luxuries over here in Asia…
Let me say that it’s an honor to have my question saved for last.
I tried to get the local grocery store to carry loose leaf yerba mate, but I think I’m digging a dry well. I’m about ready to order some online–it does taste much better than coffee.
Yeah forget about the local stores, don’t think I’ve seen it except maybe at Trader Joe’s.
“(no, don’t worry, it doesn’t look like cocaine)”
Whaaat? No cocaine? Screw that…
Sorry, next time I’ll recommend some solutions that actually resemble drugs…
i know this is totally unrelated..
but i just came back from an interview with standard chartered who contacting me for a position in Business Finance, since i really want to make my way to IB i though this could be my opening to start with analyst-related job as the person defines the job description as “need a lot of forecasting, estimating and support strategic business decision” (full disclosure: i am currently working in a big 4 accounting firm and waiting for my cfa level 1 result).. but it turns out that the job is not for forecasting business projects or new banking products. it is to to make a decision for the possibility of a new branches, new copier machine addition and worse, monitoring the cost of electricity each department made every month.. i nearly bursted into tears during the interview, not that i am doing that good in the interview either actually, but for what purpose do i learn about mark twain effect and knowing the difference between IFRS-US GAAP like the back of my hand in college for?… really sorry for being an as*hole posting this, but i realized i’ve been living in a delusion of grandeur for the past 24 years.
to I&M, thank you for posting this, i really need to let this one out..
Yeah, most jobs suck. That’s why I hate working.
….hey, you’re talking about back office jobs, so i guess it’s kinda related after all
Hi,
Quick question on the back/middle office topic.
Assuming that I want to get into IB, is it better for me to do risk management at the bank that I want to get into or PWM at a different bank (both bulge brackets)?
Thanks.
I meant a summer internship in the last post. Thanks a lot.
PWM at a diff. bank is usually a better idea.
I love your site and was recently referred by a mutual friend (unnamed for the sake of this site). I had a quick question regarding my situation: I have some decent experience and interned last summer at a small PE/M&A firm doing a bunch of research and analysis. I was able to leverage that experience pretty well on my resume, even though the firm was not so well known. After graduating from USC I took a job as a Accounting Contractor and have been trying to break into banking (interviewed at a small Valuation firm, got the job and turned it down..bad luck i guess). Now my contract is over and im gonna try even harder to get into IB — any suggestions for improving my chances? Also is my experience something that may be viewed somewhat negatively?
Your best bet is extensive cold-calling and alumni networking – beyond that, all you could really do is try to get some kind of unpaid/informal internship at a local bank/valuation/consulting type firm.
You will have an uphill battle, primarily because you already graduated and were working for a few years but people have overcome similar obstacles (a few months ago I did a case study on this).