Holla Back, Office: 7 Reasons You Shouldn’t Work In The Back Office
“Andy used to want to be in the heat of things, sealing deals and wooing clients, but now he’s destined to be support staff.
Holla back, office?”
-BigLaw, BigSchmaw, The Leveraged Sellout
Ah, the back office. Should you go there? Is it worthwhile? Are there any exit opportunities?
I try to give detailed tips on everything from private equity interviews to investment banking resumes, but my advice on this one is simple:
No.
Front Office vs. Back Office
There seems to be some confusion over what constitutes “Front Office” vs. “Back Office” (and then there’s that netherworld of “Middle Office” in between the two), so let’s be clear on terminology.
“Front Office” refers to any group that generates revenue for the firm – investment banking, wealth management, private equity, and sales & trading are all examples.
One exception: equity research is still “front office” even though it doesn’t directly bring in revenue.
“Back Office” is anything that does not generate revenue – IT, accounting, HR, risk management and compliance are examples.
You might consider some of these “back office” roles – such as risk management and compliance – to be “middle office.” But let’s make things simple and just go with “back office” for now.
As you might surmise, groups that don’t bring in revenue are not viewed favorably in a culture where greed is good.
But why specifically should you not work in the back office?
1) The Front Office Doesn’t Care
This might be the biggest misconception that prospective financiers have: that it’s “easy” to transition from back office to front office.
In practice, it’s very difficult and I’ve rarely, if ever, seen it done. In cases where it does happen, usually it’s moving from “middle office” areas such as risk management rather than jumping from IT to M&A.
Often, engineers who want to move into finance are “sold the dream” on joining IT at a large bank, thinking that they’ll be able to break in at some point in the future.
But you know what? Out of every single engineer friend who graduated with me several years ago and went to work in IT at a bank, not a single one has successfully transitioned over – even though they all want to.
2) Top Business Schools Don’t Care
Business schools classify candidates into 3 categories – the “prestigious job” (finance / consulting) crowd, the “average job” (IT consulting / accounting / product management) crowd and the “did something completely different” (became a monk in Tibet / started a company / became a wandering bard) crowd.
Or as Alex Chu over at MBA Apply so eloquently puts it, the “Blue Chips,” “Average Joes” and “Vagabonds.”
Banks and other financial services firms recruit primarily at the top 10 business schools; these schools have very few students who took the “average job” path, and by doing back office work, you put yourself in this category and therefore reduce your chances of getting into one of these top schools.
Don’t believe me? Take a look at what Alex has to say on the topic:
“The difference with HBS, Stanford and Wharton is that you’ll see far more Blue Chips and Vagabonds (and by extension, less Average Joes) than you’ll see at other schools, and particularly at HBS and Stanford.”
Needless to say, HBS, Stanford and Wharton are some of the top business schools for finance recruiting.
3) The Buy-Side Doesn’t Care Either
This one mostly applies to hedge funds, but doing back office work at a large bank is not a good way to break into the buy-side.
Some people get the idea that working in trade execution support might be a good way to network with hedge funds and eventually break in.
While this logic almost makes sense on paper, in practice it’s much better to get actual experience doing trading or investing if you want to work at a hedge fund – even a small “prop shop” or smaller hedge fund would be a much better strategy for getting into SAC or Citadel one day.
And Steve Schwarzman really doesn’t care that you did IT work at a bank – so don’t expect a great reception in private equity, either.
4) Goodbye, Models And Bottles, We Hardly Knew Ye
Don’t expect too much pay in back office jobs, let alone the models and bottles you lust after (if you’re female just think of male models here).
You’ll likely be earning slightly less than what investment banking analysts make as base salary ($60K), so probably $40-50K in your first year with a very small bonus (5-15% of base salary).
It’s hard enough living in New York or London on this kind of base salary, but to barely get a bonus either… that’s like pouring salt in the wound.
5) Respect, I Never Get Any Respect Around Here
There are myths about how bankers don’t respect lawyers when working on deals, but in my experience this is rarely true; no matter what you say behind their backs, no one directly insults or disrespects lawyers.
But back office folks are directly insulted. I’ve seen MDs yell at risk management and compliance staff because of draconian restrictions, and I’ve seen even lowly Analysts get into arguments with IT staff who are told “FIX IT NOW!!!” repeatedly.
Once again, those who don’t generate money in a culture of money are not very well off.
6) It’s A 9 To 5 Job
Yes, this is a bad thing. The problem with standard (or almost standard) hours is that learning and advancement opportunities are also very limited. If you value peace of mind and a stress-free environment more than the potential to advance, then back office work might be for you.
But I’m guessing most of you don’t fall into that category.
This type of work is more appropriate if you want to have a secure, stable job with little in the way of either downside or upside.
7) The Work Itself
Finally, the work you do in the back office is almost uniformly boring and even more repetitive than spreading comps, creating pitch books and pulling all-nighters to fix broken printers.
While you could argue that investment bankers are overpaid paper pushers as well, they actually bring in revenue via deals. And at the senior levels they focus on relationship-building, which is far more interesting than monitoring employee trades.
Ok, But Is It Really That Bad?
There are a few exceptions. As mentioned above, if you are simply seeking a low-stress environment while still being able to claim that you “work in finance,” then the back office might be for you.
Another exception: internships. It’s not necessarily the end of the world if you end up in a back or middle-office role in a summer internship, but you should try to transition out as soon as possible – it’s much easier to move over as an intern than as a full-timer.
The Solution
“Ok,” you might say, “But if I can only get back or middle office roles at bulge bracket banks what should I do?”
Simple: Go smaller. It’s far superior to do banking or trading at a boutique than to do back office work at a large company.
Sure, you might not have the same exit opportunities as your friends at Morgan Stanley IBD, but you’ll still be much better off than your friends at Morgan Stanley IT.
Boutiques are still hiring, even in this market, and are often the best strategy for those who are transitioning into finance from other careers.
Holla Back…
…if you can find me a single example of someone who successfully moved from back office to front office.
In the meantime, focus on doing client-facing work anywhere you can – that’s always better than being the IT guy (or girl).
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Hi M&I,
Thanks for the post. I am a rising sophomore and I hope to get into ibanking.
Over this summer (after freshman year) I was able to fortunate to obtain two internship opportunities: 6 weeks at ING’s Commercial Bank and 3 weeks at a venture capital firm.
I don’t think I did that much at either firm that is entirely relevant to investment banking.
At ING I located equity research off databases and built presentations for the MD as well as uploaded accounting statements from client companies to a government database.
At the VC firm I investigated two firms in the health care sector and the industry and saw their business pitch to the VC firm. I got to see the partners make decisions over the firm.
How should I describe these on my resume and in an interview to make myself a better candidate for an IBD internship? Do you think something I should say something about how these two experiences increased my interest in finance and banking?
I’m also a little worried about what to say when they ask for what I did at these internships – because some it does not seem that relevant to banking. What do you think? Thanks a lot!!!
I guess the biggest concern is how to “spin” or “bankify” what I did at these firms on my resume to make me a better candidate.
Thanks, sorry for the second post.
Again, take a look under Recruiting / sign up for the Banker Blueprint newsletter as there are some very specific examples / guidance there.
You should take a look at the resume templates on the site under “Recruiting” at the top – definitely emphasize the VC one and pitch everything you worked on as a potential deal / transaction, the commercial banking internship doesn’t matter as much. Also take a look at the How to Spin articles under Recruiting.
Thanks a lot. Really appreciate it!
Hi there, I am an investment banking analyst for an independent investment bank here in the Philippines. I discovered your website a few days ago and have been hooked since then on all the content here. I would first like to thank you and all the participants in this website for all the knowledge and insights. Very helpful. I could really relate to the articles on being an IB analyst (endless revisions from clients, associates and MDs on models, powerpoint presentations and legal documents, many times of which the final output is totally disregarded), although the pace here is much more slowly paced relative to your experiences considering the small and largely underdeveloped market here.
Anyway, regarding this article I would just like to share insight on the back and middle office vs front office discussion related to the local scene. The Philippines is developing itself into an international hub of outsourced services: call/customer service centers and all sorts of other back and middle office services (officially referred to as Business Process Outsourcing (BPO) and Knowledge Process Outsourcing (KPO) services). The rationale for this is basically relatively cheap labor and the ability of Filipinos to speak English (although over time this will drastically change as other Asian countries, especially those targeting the same objective, further develop local English-speaking skills)Basically, BPO services relate to call/customer services and KPO services relate to more “skills-oriented” services such as outsourced accounting, notary, software development and other such services. As such, in the local finance industry, many large international banks (HSBC, JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank,etc.) have opened large BPO/KPO offices here to handle such above-mentioned services. In the labor economic forces at play we can see the difference between the industry in developed markets vs developing markets. Back-office/middle-office analysts in the big international banks (working in their local BPO/KPO offices) earn a high premium over front-room analysts in the local investment banks, and an even higher premium for the former who work the graveyard shift schedules. Although the issue can always be raised as to which has more career advancement opportunities in finance (obviously the revenue-generating front office), if we’re talking about fresh college graduates or entry-level positions, working in the back/middle office in the big international banks here will give you a much higher base salary and benefits compared to working as a front-room analyst, sometimes this even follows at the associate/senior associate level.
Hello sir, I’m currently a sophomore student. I am curious about investment banking here in the Philippines. Would you mind sharing your experience on investment banking here in our country(working hours, intereviews, salary). my email is baxx_tel@yahoo.com
Thank you very much
hi there! i am also from the phil. i found out this site few months ago cause i think this is very helpful for my next job. (investment bank) ;)
Hi Brian and thanks for making a bible of “behind the scene” in the world of IB.
I have a question however, this article says that Trading is included, but would you say that going to trading would be better of via Big4 Corp.Fin/TAS? Big4 could offer valuation skills, but you’re not at the right employer…
Thx, and please hold these webpages alive forever!
I’m not sure I understand your question, but trading is in a different category from Big 4 work… in trading you generate revenue whereas with Big 4 work you are just servicing clients.
Hi again,
Sorry for not being clear.
I mean, you give 7 reasons against going BO. Would you recommend a person going via Big4:s TAS/Corp. Finance rather then BO? I suppose it is for Corp. fin in IB, but is it for a career in equity trading?
Big4 would give you Fundamental Analysis-experience while BO would be an entry-level at the right employer…
Regards, Stefan
Yes, I would recommend Big 4 TAS/Corp Fin over BO. For equity trading it might be better to do middle-office trade settlement.
Hello,
Would audit big4 still better positioned than back office at an ib?
kind regards
boondock
Not too different but I would say audit is slightly better.
Hello,
In reference to your point “Big business schools don’t care”, I have some questions. Firstly, Why is IT consulting considered such an average job? Is it possible to move from IT consulting into Management consulting, considering if you currently have a client facing IT consulting job? If yes, how so and if no, why not?
Thanks and again this website is one of the best resourses i have come across so far regarding finance.
Hadi
That’s just how they view it – the view is that IT consulting is not focused on making more money or winning clients, so it has less value than management consulting, where you’re usually advising companies on how to do one of those. You can move into management consulting from IT – Kevin on Management Consulted would probably be able to help you more there.
I’m sorry that this isn’t directly related to ib…
I have a quick question about risk management. Do you happen to know what kinds of skills risk analyst interviews will test for? Ive had my first round for citi for their global risk analyst program and going to superday but the interview was entirely fit, no technical at all.
Also, what would you say exit ops are for risk analysts? You mentioned above that there is some room for transition to ‘front office’ but it’s severely limited.
I don’t really know – for technical questions it will probably be a mix of standard accounting, maybe with some probability thrown in since it’s risk-related. Exit opps – move to front-office trading, do risk management at HF or prop trading firm, maybe move to trading there. If you do a search there are a couple interviews here on back/middle office –> front office.
Hi,
You gave reasons for avoiding BO positions. Does this apply to internships as well? Is an internship at a boutique firm looked upon better than a MO/BO position at a BB?
Internships are not quite as bad, but a boutique IB internship is still better than a MO/BO internship at a BB.
What do you think of a position in the investor relations group of a bulge bracket bank? Is this considered BO?
Also do positions in IR even exist?
Yes but more so at external firms and buy-side firms rather than banks.
Not back office but also not exactly the same as IB or PE. It’s a decent place to start but you will be more limited to ECM-related roles or internal transfers, probably more mobility than the back office though.
What do you mean by internal transfers?
Diff group at same bank
I’m a bit confused about all the BO/FO issues. Personally I’ve always wanted to work in technology in finance because the software and some engineering that’s come from it is pretty cool and the issues that it deals with (mostly speed and efficiency) is also interesting. Obviously the company has money to support this kind of research and multimillion projects for it.
So maybe I’m misunderstanding what the BO actually does? I’m not even sure why there’re comparisons between the the BO and FO since the work they do is obviously totally different. BO doesn’t just do IT support, but there’s actual innovation going on in these finance companies for tech. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
And is the BO really paid THAT much less than FO, assuming that you move up vertically in BO?
When you work at a company, you want to work in the area of that company’s core competency or focus. So at a software firm, you’d want to be in product development; at a bank you would want to be generating revenue. The problem is that lots of people assume that IT at a bank = investment banking at a bank, which is not true at all.
While there is some innovation, overall you will not be treated well in IT. And yes, the back office is paid much less – bonuses are significantly lower and even at the top levels a VP in banking would probably make more.
But aren’t the bonuses for IT in banking going to still be larger yet than working as a developer for 5-10 years at company whose core competency is developing? It seems to me like it’s still a good field to make money in, though not as much as the people actually closing the deals.
What do you think about the fact that there have been claims that 70% of the deals made in the US are just calculated by the software that IT at these companies are producing though? (Read that somewhere today, can’t remember where though sorry – but regardless, a good amount of a call to close a deal is done with software).
You might make more at a bank, but you might not – in Silicon Valley for example lots of companies actually pay six figure salaries to developers.
I don’t understand your last statement, but I won’t sugar-coat things: you do not want to be in an IT role at a bank. It’s not the end of the world, but it is far better to be in the front office or to work at a tech company if you look at overall satisfaction / advancement.
I totally agree on this. BO is full of shit. I am doing this for last 4 years since I moved to this country. I am trying to fix the damage by considering options such as Masters in Finance but dont know whether any good school would take me. BO is full of shit whether its large IB or some shitty HF
Hi, thanks for a great site!
I am really confused now. How about starting as a financial controller in a large bank then. Would it stand a chance for M&A or other Front office work? Is it worth at all in todays markets?
Best regards!
It’s not bad but it’s quite far from M&A or other front office work… so no, it probably wouldn’t be that great today.
Hi,
Had the shock of my life reading this article. I am currently working at J P Morgan for their treasury and securities division as an analyst. This is a back office job where we process transactions for the clients. Unfortunately, I come from a non target undergrad and I graduated in May. Been working for about 6 months here. I plan to do my masters soon. I have committed myself to giving cfa l1 in june 2011 (that was before I came across your site). Therefore I will not be able to apply for my masters till the 2012 intake (need to give gmat). What should my immediate course of action be given that I am working in the back office and have to bide time till 2012 for my masters?
Cancel the CFA, take the GMAT, and apply to Master’s programs sooner rather than later. If you can’t do that then you can’t really do much, maybe just start networking more.
Masters in 2012 wouldn’t work out then?
That’s fine but you wanted to reduce wasted time. So 2011 is better if possible.
Thanks for this article, I’ve got a question regarding a gray area–Administrative Assistant to a Managing Director or Senior Managing Director. Do you think there’s any chance in something like this rolling over into a front office position? The work is mostly back-office type work. Yet you are constantly interacting with the front office and often communicating with clients as something like a relationship manager.
Please let me know your thoughts!
Thanks!
No.
Hi there. I am from Mumbai, India working in JP Morgan’s back office in the INVESTMENT BANKING segment.
I would need say that it’s not the IT and Tech department and we have only non technical stuff to do in terms of allocating trades in their respective accounts. It also isn’t a BPO or a KPO either.
Now when you graduate (or are in the process of graduating) in India, the process of getting into an IB firm or major financial institution is difficult. Not only that but you could also be in a good spot if you take most of the jobs that come for front office: Credit sales and insurance sales.
When you land a job in the back office, the first priority that a company has before hiring externally is by checking their current pool of employees. So in a sense, getting your foot in the door of a company by working in their backoffice, is a lot more better than taking the lousy sales FRONT OFFICE jobs that other banks offer.
Q1. So dont you stand a better chance at applying for that new opening in your company whenever hte profile opens up?
Also I’ve noticed you asked someone to cancel their CFA aspirations in the comments. Can you please explain the rationality? Because net-world-over.. it’s known bout the value that CFA has and the weight it carries over a traditional MBA.
If i’m already in a big bank…in the IB segment.. wanting to do a CFA.. wouldn’t that work better for the company and for me both ways?
Nice to meet you.. I am working for JPM in bangalore.
I didn’t completely understand your comment. Are you talking about an IJP within the company?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-india/ Not everything applies to every country in the world. Most readers here are in the UK or US, so please assume that the advice applies to those regions unless otherwise noted.
Hi Brian,
Won’t the job of a BO analyst be more or less the same in India as elsewhere??….How about an IB internship with the Indian captive kpo’s of BB’s like the one mentioned above(JPMC)? I’ve got one such offer and I’m contemplating the exit opportunities after some work ex out there? Also, how do top B-schools look at “boutique IB wrk ex + BB captive kpo work ex”.
I am really not sure as I have not worked in India before. Captive KPOs are probably better than true back/middle office work but not as good as real i-banking.
Hi
Thanks for your articles.
I just got a random offer to intern in Finance back office at GS. I’m also applying for IB internship at Barcap. If I don’t get Barcap is it worth taking the internship at GS just to get the name on my CV or shall I stick with my front office internship in Big 4?
Thanks for your advice.
Probably GS to get the name though some would disagree
Thanks very much.
hi Dan, If i were you i would take the GS OFFER as even BO/MO of GS is worth putting on resume and is a stepping stone to front office endeavors. however if you get the front office offer from Barcap go for it eyes closed! hope this helps.
I have been offered a big 4 job doing CFO consulting (training contract, ACA or CIMA) and I was wondering how this would transition into being eligible for an Investment bank (FO or BO in a bulge or boutique bank) 3 years down the road when qualified. Would I be better off attempting to get into one instantly, or obtain my qualifications? I am final year and would prefer to work than do a conversion type masters, like finance or economics, especially seeing as I have an offer.
Something to note is I come from a maths/science background with lots of hobbies and experiences, but sadly none of them are finance related.
It’s always easier to get into IB straight away vs. waiting a few years. But if you don’t have any contacts / on-campus recruiting that’s probably not a viable option at this point since full-time recruiting is over.
No I don’t attend a target university (but my grades would have been sufficient to get me into one) and haven’t really the required level of market knowledge to convince an interviewer I know what I’m talking about currently. So for back office positions (as realistically i don’t wish to work front office hours) would I stand a chance 3 years from now for acquiring one? Or should I accept that consulting is a route I am choosing and if I want IB then I should be going down the masters route?
I would just do consulting and then a Master’s program
hey there,
I was offered a position as an intern in Finance with an IB in London (not bulge bracket, but a major player none the less) and I was wondering how difficult it is to move from Finance to other areas in banking like risk management. I’m only interested in mo/bo roles and I wonder if I completed a 3 yr grad progamme in finance would I be totally boxed in (cima of cfa qualification completed).
I like risk management because I study a very strong maths based degree and would enjoy the statistical element etc
Is the above transition possible without significant luck?
Not sure offhand but moving around the middle/back office is feasible, much easier than moving to front office.
How does MANAGEMENT Consulting in a big 4 stake up in MBA admissions and recruitment? I’m starting soon as a grad in the Finance Consulting division of a big 4 and while it’s not McKinsey it’s still strictly speaking management consulting. ALso, would you recommend big 4 consulting over Middle office (product development) and back office (operations) at a IB?
It’s good but not as good as at a dedicated firm like MBB. And yes it’s still better than MO/BO at a bank.
I think this is a little misinformed. I currenty work in Technology for a BB in london. We dont really ‘take’ orders from anyone, and actually spend time developing new platforms and technology that improve the abililty of the bank against its competitors. Also I can give two examples from my group of people moving to FO.
1. An analyst in tech for a year got a role in IB Enery and Power
2. Another tech analyst who became head of a credit sales desk in under 2 years….
Most people in tech are making good money, fair enough not as much as the bankers but a good deal better then others.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/tales-from-the-back-office/ Yes its possible to move over but it’s not the best plan if you have better options e.g. front office finance work at a company, TAS at Big 4, and so on.
I recently completed a masters in Finance from a top UK Uni and have been offered a place in Market Risk. I chose MR because of the quant nature AND stress-free life style. After reading your article, I have received the shock of my life. What should I do? :(
It’s not the end of the world, search for the middle office to sales & trading interview here.
How about working for a hedge fund administrator? I’m sure it would still be impossible to move into a banking role but what about moving from a HF administrator to a HF trading desk or equity analysis? Thanks
Honestly not sure about that one – would have to do further research.
Hi,
I am a Project Lead in a financial services IT company. I want to transition to a front office role from my current position. I have a Master degree in Financial Engineering from a top school in the Mid West.
How do I go about the transition?
Get to know people in the front office, work closely with them on projects, show yourself as reliable/competent, and then ask about moving over.
Title : Full Time Attachment (Intern)
Department : Research
No. of position : 1
Service Period : From March (2 months from starting date)
Could you please tell me if this position’s in the front office??
it simply says research so i can not tell if it is
It sounds like front office but really not sure without further information
thank you brian
Hi M&I,
Is this a particularly an American phenomenon?
I’ve just started in market risk in a BB in Australia, and there seems to be a well-trodden path onto the trading floor here. Having done engineering, I wasn’t acceptable for any FO roles straight out of undergrad, so the plan was to learn the business before heading to the US/UK for b-school.
Have I branded myself ‘middle office’ now in the eyes of US banks/schools?
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/
In trading its easier its more of an issue in going to IB because little overlap with middle/back office and IB
That I can understand. Should I try to push into trading from here, or use an MFin to make the change?
Is a market risk background a disadvantage when applying to b-school, even as a learning experience?
I would try to move into trading first without getting another degree as it’s expensive in terms of time/money. The background is not really a disadvantage but you won’t be viewed the same way as someone from a banking or trading background.
That being said, the glory days for most traders are long over.
The majority of traded money is made by computer, so most traders (with the exception of the props guys) don’t do much more than enter trades ordered by the sales guys.
(it’s worth noting a lot of middle office guys earn dramatically more salary and bonus than you estimate here. 50%+ is not unheard of in the early years in market, and roughly double the salary. But that may be a recent development…and I still want to try the front office!)
Prop trading is different from flow trading… do a search on this site for some coverage.
Hi M&I
I have received a offer for risk/support role at one of the well known trading?brokerage boutiques.
I have an MSc in Finance from well known UK Uni and further to that summer analyst experiance with equity derivatives front office at Deutsche.
What should I do? Ideally I’m looking for Analyst role within FO (either research or sales).
Thank you
If you have nothing else, take that offer and then begin networking your way over to the front office… do a search for “middle office to sales & trading” here.
thank you for your advice. I will keep my options open and I have decided not to accept the offer and wait for something else to come.
Hi M&I,
I’ve just been offered an internship in the Cross Divisional Projects department in Technology at GS, it’s the only offer on the table (I applied fairly late in the process) it is for a Business Analyst/Project Management role. I would be interested to hear your thoughts in regard to career prospects of the role in general as well as FO progression — I’m guessing since it’s in Technology which comes under the ‘Back Office’ umbrella, it wouldn’t see much posibility in a move to front office?
Also I’d be interested in hearing where you think it ranks in comparison to Audit at one of the big four? (another possible option I was looking at) though I realise that is a bit out of the scope of this article.
Thanks for this excellent article, and indeed the whole blog. Much food for thought.
If it’s just an internship and your best option I would take it. I don’t really rank things but it’s probably not as good as audit since it’s back office but the GS name does help a lot.
Many thanks for your reply.
been at a small boutique trading firm in NY and work at assistant trader for almost 5 yrs .. executing trades for senior dealers , booking forward and spot transactions with other banks and trading counterparts … very close to traders and customers but at the same time dooing lots of BO / MO work in the afternoons .. Average pay and much uncertainty where I sit . But definetely gaining exposore to FO and learning a hell of a lot about the specific market that we deal in ( commodities ) … Access to Bloomberg , live prices , talking to other traders and brokers in the process. Got an offer for a senior BO position at GS … paying double … what should I do .. Im in my early 30′s btw ???
I would take that offer and then attempt to move to the FO at GS.
thought you said that was impossible ; )
Agree , bill will probably try to leverage the offer at my current place and get them to make me official trader and pay me respective salary … ?? do you think or just go to GS ?? !!
very confusing
It’s tough for IB but easier for S&T. If you’re 100% certain they will make you a real trader stay there, otherwise move to GS.
thanks mate !
Hi M&I,
I graduated from college in 2006. I worked in a front office role at a hedge fund for 1 year and then took a middle office role at another hedge fund in NYC (with the expectation that I would be able to move to the front office). I have been with the firm for 3+ years and I am now in a senior role but still in the middle office (risk/portfolio analysis). Long term I would prefer to be in research & portfolio management. I started looking for a new position but have only been shown middle office roles by recruiters.
Should I try to move to the front office at my current firm, continue networking/searching for a different role elsewhere or apply to b-school this year?
I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide some guidance. Thank you.
Spend 6 months looking for a role elsewhere and if that doesn’t work apply to b-school
Great, thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.
I am interviewing for a legal analyst position at GS doing derivatives and commodities. Right now I am currently at a big law firm as a litigation/financial restructuring paralegal and I am looking to switch to investment banking or possibly S&T. I went to a target school and graduated in 2009 (not the best GPA though). Would it be worthwhile to take a position like this or should I continue networking to get into IB or S&T?
GS has the “GS University course curriculum” which I’m not sure what to make of it. Perhaps I would be able to take courses in IB or S&T if I desired. Do you know anything about this? Would it enable me to have more mobility within GS if I had taken courses within the firm?
Thanks for your help
If you’re more interested in S&T I would go for that as you may be able to transition in; for IB I wouldn’t do it as it’s harder to move in from there. Don’t know about the GS curriculum specifically.
Hi,
I am currently working back office at a major Investment bank(top 2, take your guesses) working in Finance. What is the best route to move into the business side/front office. My previous mentor has advised me that easiest route is to make a name for myself in the middle office and network to a front office role. So far, everything I have seem to come across, is either PnL reporting or glorified break clearing roles. What types of roles are available in the MO, and which best prepare you for the FO. I think many people are in this type of situation and would like to know your thoughts of moving up.
Thanks,
W
In this situation your best bet is to aim for sales & trading instead – there’s a good interview here:
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/
How screwed am I if take BB SA BO position (controllers)?
This was the only offer I got even after networking with alums (I didn’t know the technicals as well as I thought, so I didn’t do too well in the interviews they got me, I feel like an idiot, I know its completely my fault).
I want to do IB and then PE, but I think I’m really scewed here. I didn’t do well in high school so I didn’t get into a target school (still top 35 overall in the nation though, so its not like I go to a terrible state school). I didn’t really have an interest in finance until this year, so my past internships aren’t finance related. Some alums said they’d help me out with FT recruiting, but those are all boutiques (and not the elite ones like Jefferies, Lazard, etc.) I’ll never get into a top PE firm.
I’m confident I’ll be able to get a boutique IB job next year (well hopefully, I’m going to study my ass off to nail down the technicals), but even though there are BB alums from my school, I don’t think I’ll ever get anything at a BB right?
You never know, really depends on whether you go for S&T vs. IB, whether the market recovers, and so on… plus other factors like MBA programs. If you do a search for middle office you’ll see some reader transition stories.
Hello, I’m a penultimate year student and just got an offer (summer internship) from Goldman Operations division and another from RBS sales/trading. I wanna go to the sales division but Goldman will definitely make my resume shine.. (my resume’s got only one big name, BCG). What’d you recommend?
RBS sales/trading.
I’ve been working in Finance at Barcap under the graduate programme for nearly 2 years now. Lots of training provided under the programme but ultimately I’m still doing BO work that’s really boring. Never felt disrespected by the traders but agree with all the other points.
I jumped on this job offer in my final year of Uni cos of the big name (ignorance) but am now wondering if it was a right choice at all.
If moving to an IB is going to be difficult, what about moving to consultancy? Any thoughts on that?
Also, what about moving from BO to a boutique IB?
I don’t think consulting would be much easier; boutique IB might be marginally easier. Your best bet is going into sales & trading from there. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/
Hey,
Great website. I have worked 5 years at the Big 4 (Audit – but in the Asset Management space – hedge funds, private equity funds, investment advisors etc.). I am taking Level III of the CFA in June because of my interest in portfolio management. I know all your posts are about back office to front office in IB but its just as hard to go to the front office in PM. Even with a CFA in hand. I am thinking of giving the top B-schools a shot (if I get in) because thats the only way I gather to get into a big Wall Street bank on the IM/IB side. You think I stand a bigger chance with my background of getting recruited into IB from a top B school or into IM (considering I will hopefully have my CFA)? In IB, will they still put me in as an associate though I have never been an analyst at an IB before?
Thanks so much!
Probably still have a better chance at IM if you have the CFA. And yes you would still be an associate in IB despite no previous experience
Understood. Thank you. I know you have posts about why an MBA is used by a lot of people for a career change but the focus is on people in a completely different field (healthcare/manufacturing etc). If I will have my CFA, what really does an MBA at a Top 5 school give me in terms of an education that gets a BB to say “let’s see if he can be recruited in?”. I guess I am a little confused because we’d be trained in modeling anyway, the MBA program wouldn’t teach us that. It’s hard to break in without an MBA but I am questioning what really gets the banks excited about recruiting now that someone has an MBA vs when she/he didn’t. (Only talking about MBAs from top schools). Hope my question makes sense.
It’s more just that the MBA is a huge commitment of time/money and that banks recruit from those programs out of tradition. But for IM I’m not really sure you need it, it’s more for people who want to do banking or consulting.
Hi,
Have been working in consulting (yeah, yeah I know :)) for 3 years – 2 in emerging markets and 1 in UK.
Current plan is to get into IB (A2-A3 positions) and researching back-office to front-office transfers.
Currently there is an opportunity to go to internal Strategy & Planning dept of a BB bank. Job spec says Corp Strategy, Planning, Corporate M&A, Corporate Investments etc.
Job descriptions mention valuation, research, modelling and quant analysis as second bullet point (right after Supporting day-to-day workflow etc).
Question: will it be possible to move to front-office (i.e. proper IBD – M&A Advisory) after working in such a position?
Not necessarily at the same bank.
Thank you in advance!
Hard to say since it sounds like more of a middle office role. Possible yes but still difficult.
Thank you.
What about moving to the front-office of another bank after a certain amount of time?
Is it feasible or will I have a “Middle-Office” stamp on my forehead in their eyes?
Yes it’s possible but you you will have better luck going to the front office at a smaller bank
I’m 3 years out of undergrad, working in prime brokerage client service at a BB. Pretty much the definition of this middle office you speak of. Would like to make a move to either equity sales trading or the PB desk but am working w/ nothing more than a state school degree at this point. upside is i’ve got a great deal of exposure to various desks and see clients on a somewhat frequent basis. any general advice as to quickest/best route to a desk at this point?
There are some tips here: http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/
Hi,
I turned down a front office internship working for a smaller firm and interned at one of the Big Banks (JPM) in NY in the back office (Operations). I moved from BO to MO into a finance role for a two year rotational program. I want to get into the FO either IB or S&T.
I was told that I should work for 5 years then go back to business school is one option. But i believe that is too long and I could end up being branded as a MO person. Should I go back to BS sooner or should I try to navigate my way over to the front office in these next two years?
I would try to move in sooner without business school. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/
Hey Brian,
I have some questions about IM and IB.
Is IM part of an investment banking? If it is, is it FO or middle office?
Also, is it less competitive to get a job on IM than IB?
Is hedge fund and private equity subcategories of IM?
They are all different.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/all-about-exit-opportunities/
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/hedge-funds-institutional-asset-management/
Hi Brian
I will be working for an 3rd Party KPO soon. I would be doing financial modelling, Valuations, Comps. Will It be difficult for me to switch to IB roles?
Thanks A lot !
It will not be easy but it’s doable (see response on the other thread).
Not sure I 100% agree with this. I studied Aerospace Engineering at university, joined a bank on an IT grad programme and then 2 years after being there got offered a role Structuring in the Front Office….I wrongly chose another opportunuity in IT over this, but just to show it is possible to move if you’re determined and meet the right people!
Hi Brian,
I’m not sure if you still track the above article and comments, but I wanted to say a quick thank you (along with some other stuff…) I recently made the transition from operations to research at a BB and found M&I to be a very helpful resource. With that said, I realize sell-side research may not be your favorite, but I still found this move to be somewhat of a challenge. I definitely made the most of this site though, as the networking advice was priceless and the few success stories were encouraging.
Now on to the other stuff…I’m faced with a bit of a dilemma and would appreciate your advice. As much as I don’t want to be the annoying kid that asks you to email me, I am not entirely comfortable discussing this here. Would the BIWS contact form work for that? Anyway, if you can help, great, if not, that’s cool too. Keep doing what you’re doing and thanks again for birthing M&I.
Cool glad to hear it this was written years ago so I don’t even remember writing that. If you are a customer feel free to go through the BIWS contact form – otherwise, we don’t provide support for extremely detailed questions.
Nothing personal, but this is a business and the focus is on supporting customers – unfortunately I would do nothing but answer emails for 12 hours per day if I let everyone ask detailed questions.
Hi there i am a recent economics graduate in the UK with a 1.1 at a top 15 university. I have been offered a role at deusche bank to be a global rates t+1 controller which i understand is a MO position the pay is reasonable at £21,000, however i am thinking more in prospective terms, with the current climate not that promising for graduates with litle or no experience (myself with no relevant financial experience), and with grad schemes increasingly more difficult to get onto… would you say starting with this job is a good starting point then transition elsewhere within 1-2 years? possibly the experience helping me gain admission onto a grad scheme? i eventually want to do the aca, eventually i want to become an investment banker… could you please suggest an appropriate route for me. Thanks much appreciated
Yes probably Master’s program is the best option after that
Ok, I will start out by saying I graduated in May from a non-target school, and had a GPA of 3.45/4 with a degree in finance and a minor in IT. I know I have an uphill battle landing all of the glorified analyst jobs already, I am just trying to see what makes the most sense for me right now. I have an interview with MS back office for a temporary operations position. If I do get offered the position, and nothing else seems to be coming back, would it be worthwhile to have the MS name on my resume? I would like my next step after this to be in some sort of equity research position. Would BO automatically disqualify me from these types of positions, even if it was a temporary position?
If it’s just a temp position not necessarily the end of the world, MS name will help as well
Having held senior positions in a number of Top 5 Investment Banks I found your article, sadly spot on.
However I do have 3 examples of transitions into Front Office as follows:-
1. Back Office functions that are Relationship Management focussed. Bt creating a very strong reputation with Front Office I know 2 staff that moved into a Front Office COO Roles. They both then worked until midnight every night, but do have potential for greater income. Sadly one of them was let go, so the risks in the Front Office can be higher, so be careful what you wish for, and if stability and work life balance is important, don’t even think about it.
2. IT Support function working with clients. This was an unusual client facing IT role, and a colleague then transitioned into a Front Office Sales role, and has been very successfull.
3. Retire British Army Officer. If you sign up at 16, you can be pensioned off in your late 30′s, and this guy joined the firm as a Graduate entry. I guess starting salary was half of what he was used to, but in 3 years he will be offered senior roles that his 20 something peers may never have access to. Smart move but takes high self worth, drive and stamina.
Yes that’s true, more feasible on the S&T side as well.
Hi,
Basically, I’ve secured a position in a summer internship programme, for 2012, at a swiss investment bank. However, this position is in finance (They ain’t told us what particular position in finance just yet). Say if I then went on to get a job in the back office of the finance department. Do you think it would be better for me to go to a big 4 accounting firm rather than just stay in the back office for a few years at this particular investment bank? This is because I particularly don’t see myself doing a front office role.
And secondly, is back office pay really low across the big 4 accounting firms and investment banking? or is it just low compared to what front office people get?
Thanks for your help! Much appreciated!
Yes I would say Big 4 is better IF it’s a client-facing role. Otherwise stick with the bank. Back office pay – base salary about the same but bonuses much lower / nonexistent.
So after completing 2 yrs wrth of MO finance work at a top BB (in a rotational style program), I will be heading over to a top notch MSc Finance program in the UK this fall.
I read in your other threads that MSc programs are usually for those without experience and I may be at a disadvantage applying for FO roles (primarily interested in banking/equity research/investment analysis).
Do you think I will be severely disadvantaged going into my MSc Finance program compared to those without any full time experience? Any tips on how to land my desired roles once I arrive on campus? Should I be targeting smaller places or would I be reasonably competitive at BBs as well?
Not really, but I would still spread your net wide and target everything you can… try to spin your MO experience as having more to do with FO and interacting with traders etc.
Also, do banks usually ask for references from your ex bosses when you apply for jobs in the UK? I’m kind of scared becuse I know for a fact that my current boss is not happy with my recent performance (I lost motivation since I gained acceptance into the Msc Finance program, ie something better down the line).
Do you think getting a Msc from a top school (my undergrad was a state school) and finding a job via OCR is a better idea than sticking in my current MO role and networking? Will be brand name of the school be beneficial down the road in my career?
No I don’t think they do maybe just to check on basic facts but nothing else. Yes Msc from top school is a better choice if you don’t have a good name already.
I’ve been offered a BO role with RBS which involves processing trades, liaising with clients, utilising banking systems, and managing business operations and change! Do you think this is worth it with no degree?
It’s OK but will be hard to move to front office unless it’s a trading role you’re moving into.
I’ve been working in the risk management division of the research department as an intern (I’m an undergrad) for two years. But it’s a really small quant company. I think that the heart of the company’s ability to generate revenue lies in the research department (which is where I’ve been working), not with the traders because I think that they just execute the trades the strategy tells them to. Am I deluding myself and if so why, and what are your thoughts? My goal is to become a quant trader though, not an I-Banker.
It’s questionable but most places don’t respect research too much… it might help with getting into quant trading but you’re better off doing trading first to get there.
So here’s my story. Did an undergrad in electronics engineering so have more than enough quant and math on the CV. Worked as an an engineer in a leading IT services company for two years back in India. Left the job for a Master’s in Strategic Management at one of the leading business schools in the UK. Market was tough so ended up taking a Tech grad program offer from a BB bank Sept last year. My question to you is do you think it makes sense to stick around and complete 2 years of this graduate program if I want to eventually move into Sales & Trading/Equity Research & Strategy or maybe PE?
My exit options here are apply again to grad programs for front office which seems like a great ordeal at the moment or should I try the consulting route apply for strategic consultancies, management consultancies etc.
I should have mentioned I’m also giving the CFA Level 1 end of this year simply because I like portfolio management and wanted to get a bit of background about the different asset classes.
Hoping you can help me soon.
Should also mention ended up with a first for the Master’s which is a decent achievement in the UK. Also forgot to mention I’ve never really thought long and hard about banking and hence applied to tech since it seemed easier to get into.
Thanks a ton for your help and this site is really amazing!
I think the program would only help if you could take advantage of recruiting there to go for front office roles. So if that’s the case, yes.
So continue on the same grad program for 2 years and network alongside?
Yes
Hi
I recently got an offer for a Product Development Analyst position in Prime Brokerage at a BB Ibank. Can you please tell me if this is front/middle/back office? It was advertised as Front office FYI.
If “Product Development” means doing IT stuff, back office. If it refers to actually developing financial products, front office.
Hi, the job role involves creating new systems/products. There is no IT work involved. It’s purely excel etc based.
Then I assume front office without knowing the details